US Navy destroyer collision

[estarzinger]

^^ I'm less interested in 'who is at fault' - because we all know that much everyone involved was at fault.

What I am interested in is how it could/did happen on an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. I have not yet heard a compelling scenario that would adequately explain the incident. And my understanding is this is the third very bad mistake/incident on this class of vessel. They have all the manning and all the equipment they could desire. I would have a suspicion that there is some serious systematic problem with the vessel C&C structure.

I understand how it could happen on the container ship - pretty much a pure matter of economics, and they honestly do a pretty incredible job given the low manning levels.

[Van Der Beek]

How it could happen, or the possiblity as to why, is explained in the article.

[Sandero]

Wasn't the Fitz cap asleep? If true that is incredible...

I can't wait to read the after report... and see what they blame for this tragedy.

Evins nails it... no way should the Fitz get into this situation... EVER.

This is a lack or preparation and training and understanding of Coleregs and their nav equipment... what else could it be? That seems unfathomable... but other than the boogie man... there is no other explanation.

Is this a Navy problem or the Cap's problem? Does he think all boats within 10 miles stand down and stay clear like trained puppies?

You stay away from collision situations at all cost.

[30yearslater]

This whole debacle is easy to understand when you consider the US Navy has so many people involved in the operation of their ships. One person to turn the wheel for left rudder and one to turn the wheel for right rudder. Of course every damn order is sent through a myriad of individuals standing 5 feet apart and repeating the order. Pretty much why I joined the Army's Navy. We would pull up on the beach and unload then be headed back out in under an hour. The Navy with their LSTs usually took hours just to get the damn ramp down with all manner and form of gestures, yelling and various gyrations. Even the lowliest deck hand in the Army could order engine starts and course changes and other essentials as a matter of efficiency and safety. We also ran with small crews. Independent thought was encouraged with the admonition that no one of us was off the hook in the event of a collision but would be called to account regardless of rank.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

How it could happen, or the possiblity as to why, is explained in the article.

well, they suggest, like I have, that there is a systematic C&C problem . . . .

It is pretty obvious there had to be 'communication failures' . . . .

but beyond that they dont really lay out what I would consider a compelling scenario on how it could happen. There had to be at least three (probably 4) C&C chain's which totally failed. That is more than a 'communication failure'.

And when you combine it with the two other Arleigh Burke incidents . . . . Navy needs to look at bigger root causes - something like they did when they started SubSafe.

[Pelagic]

Captains are human...they need sleep!
.....the failure of alerting the Captain to the bridge was not his but the officer in charge.

[estarzinger]

^^ This is from media reporting, so take with a large grain of salt but . . . .

They apparently had no idea the container ship was there, and they had no idea what just happened in the seconds after the collision. They are reported to have gone to battle stations and manned their guns thinking they were under attack.

How much of that is true is unknown, but it does seem like it was a surprise and the OOD/XO did not think to call the captain because he had no idea anything was amiss.

But I agree #1 the captains need their sleep, #2 the XO should be able to run the ship in route traffic, #3 I am guessing (based on reports from my academy friends) that the Captain was pleased with the way the cruise had gone and was comfortable with the competence of his crew to handle the routine run home (right!!).

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by UAEguy

CNN and Fox are showing a computer simulation of the collision in which the ACX is overtaking from behind and collision is glancing with buld ripping open 3 underwater compartments.

Simulation in attached video bears out my observations that the impact damage suggested the Fitzgerald was in fact overtaking the Crystal at the time of the collision NOT the other way around.

Names and images of 7 deceased sailors released Video - ABC News

[Sandero]

7 men died... and we pay billions for this navy... I say mothball the entire fleet and use the money for infrastructure projects...

The navy is not making us safe... it is spending billions and wasting it.

And now they want to re commission a carrier because they claim they need 12 of them. Disgusting.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

? Particularly given the united states current president and his apparent paranoia and insecurity.

I have been reading yours and others speculation, assumptions and pontificating and was not going to bother responding because, what would be the point?

But your last sentence is absurd beyond absurdity.

People died. Why not just wait for the JAGMAN?

[tankersteve]

GCaptain has had some very indepth discussions of merchant mariner interactions with US Navy vessels. The biggest theme I took away is that US Navy vessels tend to rely on their maneuverability to get them out of harms way, rather than good stationkeeping and seamanship when operating in restricted waterways.

Most of the time, this is more than adequate, but with the amount of water covered by the many ships of the Navy, weaknesses in this tendency do show up.

There has been some pretty decent analysis done by folks here on the likely orientation, speed and disposition of the vessels involved. I definitely learned a bit about large commercial vessels and their nighttime operations. However, very little excuses a naval captain of hazarding his vessel, regardless of whether he was awake or not. Run aground and bad charts with wrong depth? - too bad, but it was your ship. Competent XO fails to provide proper oversight to a junior officer that made a critical mistake? You should have ensured both were trained better.

I'm not sure the impact 7 deaths will have on the captain. Maybe a court-martial vs a career-ending letter of reprimand.

As far as his CV and sea-history, this captain probably has as much or more command time than many destroyer captains. Does this mean he is a superb master and commander? No, he is a (likely excellent) naval officer, and those definitions are no longer synonymous, especially as compared to a commercial sea captain.


We can't let the Hornblower romanticism hide the fact that even in that era, a non-navy 'master' was assigned to ships to ensure outstanding sailing of the vessel. The captain commanded and fought the ship. If he happened to be a fantastic sailor, that seems to be a bonus.

Tankersteve

[hpeer]

Evans,

My Wife once came across some research that said if you need assistance, say found lying by the side of the road, you are more likely to be helped if you are found by a sole person rather than by a number of people. A single individual, knowing they are the only source of help, will render aid. If a few people find you there is an excellent chance no one will help you, they all think someone other than themselves will do the job.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Simulation in attached video bears out my observations that the impact damage suggested the Fitzgerald was in fact overtaking the Crystal at the time of the collision NOT the other way around.

Names and images of 7 deceased sailors released Video - ABC News

Wow! Thanks Delancy, that ABC video now makes some sense of the conflicting timeline reports, the absurdity of an unknown target (Fitzgerald) slowly converging to port and the inability of both Bridge officers to decide on a safe course of action because of Navy policy to NOT transmit their intentions to commercial ships.

A perfect storm of bad policy that promotes situational ignorance,, sloppy watch keeping on the junior watch and the dangerous sector where crossing and overtaking is often not clear...or fluctuates with minor course variations.

This Tragically Cost 7 lives!! and
Makes me both sad and angry!

I can understand why the CS took so long to turn around.

This would be thier normal condition:

Engineroom rung off Standby, Engineer Asleep
Captain Asleep
Unidentified Target converging slowly from their port
Mate tries a few avoidance course changes as they slowly converge
In a panic, Mate Alters to Port to pass astern

We still don't the track and last actions of the Fitzgerald as the Navy in their arrogance have still not released that information to the public.

After the collision, confusion and shock as the CS continues with the same shaft revolutions for what to them seemed like a glancing blow.

Captain wakes up and tries to figure out what happened.

Chief Engineer does soundings and visual inspection of cargo and shell plate and Reports to Captain
Captain now in command who sees clear traffic ahead, maintains course as he evaluates their condition.

Engineroom now on Stand bye, Captain advises Coast Guard of his own situation, deems it safe to turn around to offer any assistance to a stll unknown casualty.

All of that takes time and is NOT a hit and run, as the media are saying.

[El Pinguino]

A few comments on crossing situations...

The worst thing as watchkeeper is to be in a 'stand on' situation looking at the give way ship and wondering 'will she alter?' 'when will she alter??' 'When should I alter???'

The ASX Crystal was crossing a SW going stream of traffic, so any SW bound ship on steady bearing would be frd of her port beam.. which is the worst of the worst situations .... when you do give 5 blasts what to do? Go to port... which despite all you hear.. may well be the best thing to do.... **IF** the other ship continues to do nothing....

However if you go to port and he belatedly goes to starboard you are in very very deep poo at many levels...

Sadly, if you go hard astarboard you are most likely laying yourself across the other ship's bow and that can also lead to tears...

PS I very much doubt USN ships use AEGIS for day to day navigation and collision avoidance... more likely an almost bog standard Raytheon....

[djlocker]

ArsTechnica.com is reporting that the collision took out the Fitzgerald's radio room, accounting for the lack of timely report from the Fitz of the collision:

Part of the initial suspicion about the data was caused by the reported time of the accident: the collision was widely reported to have occurred at 2:30am local time. But that report came long after the actual collision; the Fitzgerald's radio room was apparently taken out, and the Crystal did not report the collision to the Japanese Coast Guard until a full hour after the actual collision at 1:30am. In fact, after initially steering away from the collision, the Crystal did not turn around to render aid to the Fitzgerald for a full half hour, based on track data.