US Navy destroyer collision

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Yes, I can envision situations where silent and local comms between warships would be useful, even in this day of encrypted sat comms. But my query was specifically aimed at merchant vessels.

Jim

I haven't checked lately, but "daylight signal lights" were always part of the required inventory for large commercial vessels that went thru mandatory inspection
If I remember correctly over 500 or 600 tons depending on registry.

Could probably confirm under Daylight signaling equipment required for Steamship Inspections

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Interesting! While I can still copy between 10 and 15 wpm of morse on ham radio, the totally different set of synapses that would be needed for light flashes would be a tough thing to develop. I (as a card carrying WAFI) can't see too many applications for Aldis comms between merchant vessels these days.

Jim

PS Did semaphore come into the training too?

Semaphore was dropped in about 1970... morse by lamp was still in the exams about 10 year ago.

My last ship but one had an aldis by the port wheelhouse door, last ship had one in a cupboard somewhere... it also had a manual foghorn at the stop of the stairs as it didn't fit in a cupboard.

That said you don't need much morse to send five flashes......

Understand re reading by eye or ear... I can still read a lamp but struggle with sound.... uses a different bit of the brain....

[El Pinguino]

Solas Chapter 5, Reg 19

'2.2 All ships of 150 gross tonnage and upwards and passenger ships irrespective of size shall, in addition to the requirements of paragraph 2.1, be fitted with:
2.2.1 a spare magnetic compass interchangeable with the magnetic compass, as referred to in paragraph 2.1.1, or other means to perform the function referred to in paragraph 2.1.1 by means of replacement or duplicate equipment;
2.2.2 a daylight signalling lamp, or other means to communicate by light during day and night using an energy source of electrical power not solely dependent upon the ship's power supply.'

[El Pinguino]

The aldis used to be plugged into a battery in a box that you lugged from one bridge wing to the other.....

[Snowpetrel]

^^ Yeah, thats how ours were set up, always port bridge, right in the corner so the cord would reach out the door. They had big satifying shades that clicked open when you pulled the trigger. It was fun when you got to "flash them", normally about three miles or so in a crossing situation and it typically got great results. The offending vessel would be seem altering away very quickly.

I have used the same idea once on snow petrel. I flashed the masthead strobe 5 times in a nasty overtaking situation with a big ship and got an instant result as they boldly altered away straight afterwards.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

........ In aircraft this decision is automated in a system called TCAS and instruments in both planes tell the pilot which way to steer to avoid a collision. This system works well in 3 dimensions, at high speeds, and has been around for several decades. I'm somewhat amazed that a simpler 2 dimensional system was not included in the class a AIS standard.

While off topic to some degree, there are some parallels to the thread .

However, TCAS does not provide any steering (or heading) advisories. All advisories are always in the vertical mode i.e. it gives a command to either climb, descend or maintain current height. All rates of climb (+ or -) are at a standard of 500' per minute which is hardly noticeable by the average passenger. So it is really one dimensional system. The system gives advisories to both aircraft at the same time. The system determines which TCAS box will be the command unit (and which is not) in each and every instance of possible conflict by a process of algorithms. For instance, it won't command an aircraft close to the land to descend or one that has flaps deployed to climb etc.

A somewhat interesting snippet is that in the event of a possible conflict between two aircraft that are identical in every way, the box with the earlier serial number takes command - a seniority thing .

While no doubt a marine version could be designed, there are far more technical challenges to overcome in a marine environment than that of an aviation environment. The cost / benefit ratio is just not there in the maritime world. Very few people are killed in marine collisions compared to say two wide bodied jets bumping into each other.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Interesting! While I can still copy between 10 and 15 wpm of morse on ham radio, the totally different set of synapses that would be needed for light flashes would be a tough thing to develop. I (as a card carrying WAFI) can't see too many applications for Aldis comms between merchant vessels these days.

Jim

PS Did semaphore come into the training too?

Hi Jim,
Just checked with one our cadets, and the ability to send and receive morse by signal lamp is still a requirement for UK Certificates of Competency.
Not sure if it is still required to be the 6 wpm.
When I was an apprentice, we still had the Marconi sparkies onboard, and I got one of them to teach me morse on the key. Trouble was, I managed to get up to 25 wpm on the key, so when I went back to the class, I had trouble to start with reading and sending at 6wpm.

With a proper Aldis lamp, it physically limits the speed, with the best will in the world, it wont be as fast as sending on a key.

A little anecdote, I met my girl friend at the nautical college (still got her), and she was absolutely hopeless at reading morse.
For the exam, they used a key connected to a small light bulb, the person taking the exam would read the code, and a friend/colleague would write down the characters.
As she was so hopeless, I went into the exam with her to be the writer, but had told her just to keep her mouth shut and not say a word. Due to all the practice I had from at sea on a morse key, I could hear the dit dah's of the key being made and just wrote in the characters.

She did pass

Every ship I have been on has an Aldis lamp with it's own 12V battery box, and most ships have a 12V socket close to the bridge wing doors for connecting the lamp to.
As others have done, I make sure the lamp is connected and close to the port bridge wing door.
Trouble nowadays is that new ships are being built with enclosed bridge wings and no bridge wing door, and using an Aldis lamp inside the bridge and directing it through a window is hopeless.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by nigel1

.......

With a proper Aldis lamp, it physically limits the speed, with the best will in the world, it wont be as fast as sending on a key.

A little anecdote, I met my girl friend at the nautical college (still got her), and she was absolutely hopeless at reading morse.
For the exam, they used a key connected to a small light bulb, the person taking the exam would read the code, and a friend/colleague would write down the characters.
As she was so hopeless, I went into the exam with her to be the writer, but had told her just to keep her mouth shut and not say a word. Due to all the practice I had from at sea on a morse key, I could hear the dit dah's of the key being made and just wrote in the characters.
...........

When I sat 2nd mates and mates the lot of us were paired up like that but 'en masse'.... all 'readers' told to whisper.... yup that will work.... if you missed a letter you said nothing and your 'writer' just wrote what the rest of the room had whispered..

In London we did 'signals' on several days of the week with a retired RN signalman who was also on the key in the exam room.

The week before the exam we had half an hour of 'special signals' with him....
'When I send 'S' I send it fast.... like this...'
'When I send 'H' I send it slow... like this...'
'When I send 5...' Etc...

'Special Signals' cost half a crown.... money well spent..

[Snowpetrel]

All this talk of morse brings back very bad memories. I suspect I was very lucky to have a good writer/listener. I owe you one Craig!

[David M]

It's called the "whistle", not the "horn". I know, that sounds petty, and it is but I like sticking with the salty talk.

At the maritime academy, it was drilled into our heads to turn right. More for in extremis situations.

[Jim Cate]

Thanks to all of you for the interesting and amusing info re Aldis and morse... fascinating to us WAFIs who are curious as to how the pros do things.

Jim

[Cavalier 32]

Originally Posted by TwoBlocked

"Why should the US Navy care whether you trust them?!"

Oh yes, indeedy! And we can substitute any person or organization for the US Navy. But, let's not confuse things. We will stick with the USN.

First, do they care? I think so from their actions and the press releases. Rather than give any details (not even the correct time of the collision!) they expound on the heroism and the mournful loss of the sailors on board. If they didn't care what we thought, there would be silence, nothing but crickets to listen to.

But then why do they care?

The US Navy cares whether we trust them so that they can benefit from that trust. Things like sending our children to their recruiters, writing our congressmen that we need an 2,000 ship fleet, and to obey when they say "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

What makes the red flashing light go off in the back of my mind is people questioning my compassion if I do not trust someone that is asking for trust. What is the number one line from a con man? "Trust me!"

8 up I up with o I ooe

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Cavalier 32

8 up I up with o I ooe

Is this some of that code that professional mariners had to cheat at in order to pass? LOL

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Thanks to all of you for the interesting and amusing info re Aldis and morse... fascinating to us WAFIs who are curious as to how the pros do things.

Jim

Yep, fascinating how these merchant marine "pros" are quite happy to admit to cheating in their professional exams. In the military, I would have been kicked out for that sort of behaviour.

Makes you wonder what other skills they don't have.

[donradcliffe]

I've been out the armchair for the last week, bringing a boat down the coast and into Los Angeles harbor. Approaching the harbor at night, I looked at the AIS and out the window, and conditions were similar to those in the Fitzgerald incident--about 10-15 ships within 12 miles and good visibility. With the AIS on the OpenCpn chartplotter, we had great situational awareness--about a third of the ships were in designated traffic lanes coming NW/SE from Annacapa Island, while the others were organized for port-to-port passings in an unofficial traffic separation scheme on a westerly/easterly track.

We did not have radar, but had a helmsman (no autopilot) and a lookout on deck at all times. We were eastbound at 8 knots, while most of the traffic was running 10-15 knots. I kept track of the nearby CPA's, and worked to get 3 miles to the north of the westbound ships, as I wanted to pass them starboard to starboard and didn't want to trigger any silly responses. I used the invaluable 'show positions at CPA' function on OpenCpn a couple of times to further clarify crossing and overtaking situations.

The point of all this is that on a typical night approaching a congested harbor, there were no close calls, no VHF exchanges, no horns, and no flashing lamps. Everyone had situational awareness and everyone did their job. Even in an 8 knot boat with no radar, I only had one CPA of less than 3 miles, and even that was not less than 2. I spent the night wondering how could those watchstanders on the Fitzgerald get it so wrong...