US Navy destroyer collision

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Wotname

The principle is pretty simple. Employees are expected to be honest, open and able to discharge their duties allocated to them; the employer (shareholders) expects them to transparent and truthful.



All government personal are simply employees of the shareholders (citizens).



The further you stray from the principles, the murkier society becomes.

That's not the relationship we have in the US. The US has an all volunteer military. They are not paid mercenaries.

They get pay and other benefits. But they are not our employees.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

That's not the relationship we have in the US. The US has an all volunteer military. They are not paid mercenaries.

They get pay and other benefits. But they are not our employees.

I think that is mostly semantics..
They volunteer to join an organization, get trained, paid and looked after.

Sounds like any other career decision, except they are working for the government.... aka the taxpayer

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think that is mostly semantics..
They volunteer to join an organization, get trained, paid and looked after.

Sounds like any other career decision, except they are working for the government.... aka the taxpayer

Just want to point out something that seemed kinda funny to me when I was on the ships in the 80's was we also paid our own salaries to some degree.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

That's not the relationship we have in the US. The US has an all volunteer military. They are not paid mercenaries.

They get pay and other benefits. But they are not our employees.

Huh... They get pay but they are not "paid". Who pays them; I always assumed it was the USA taxpayer.

Who is their employer - surely the USA government/CIC and who pays the government/CIC - surely the citizens of presumably the USA.

Yes they volunteers but so are all the guys who work in every other industry in the USA. I understand you got rid of slavery some time back

But if you want to stray from the underlying principle then so be it...

[transmitterdan]

They are military service personnel. They don't have same rights as government employees. They have their own justice system apart from civilian courts. They may be forced to work 24/7 when on duty. They get rest periods and leave days but can be put into action anytime and anywhere. They are not free to do as they please during off time. That is not an employee by any normal definition.

They also are entitled to anonymity in an investigation until certain steps in the UCMJ. They simply are not civilian employees.

[softdown]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

The US navy mindset of arrogance towards complying with COLREGS, needs to be changed internally!

The USA mindset of arrogance towards working as a mature and responsible global citizen needs to change.

Is this what you meant...I hope.

[Pelagic]

No, I am a big fan of the USA and its democratic Constitution which makes her a target for the really bad guys.

But it is the freedom of discussions like this that ironically helps to keep that arrogance in check.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

That's not the relationship we have in the US. The US has an all volunteer military. They are not paid mercenaries.

They get pay and other benefits. But they are not our employees.

They are employed and paid to do a job... therefore they are employees whether they are US nationals or foreign nationals.

They are employees of the US navy.

Volunteers or conscripted or foreign mercenaries is neither here nor there..

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Wotname

The principle is pretty simple. Employees are expected to be honest, open and able to discharge their duties allocated to them; the employer (shareholders) expects them to transparent and truthful.

All government personal are simply employees of the shareholders (citizens).

The further you stray from the principles, the murkier society becomes.

This sums it up nicely.

No report means no public oversight.

That means we have abdicated our role in managing the system.

Does "Trust me" extend both from the public to the military AND from the military to the public. It seems to me that the ones not being trusted here is the public.

It also strikes me that this is dissolving into a typical disagreement between traditional Libetarian and authoritarian world views.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

They are employed and paid to do a job... therefore they are employees whether they are US nationals or foreign nationals.



They are employees of the US navy.



Volunteers or conscripted or foreign mercenaries is neither here nor there..

It makes a huge difference. Sailors are entitled to anonymity during early days of an investigation. A dribble of facts can only lead to reinforcement of preconceived guilt or innocence by members of the public. We already see that in this thread and some online outlets.

Please also remember these young men and women have families back home. The families have been targeted by US enemies in the past. So let's let the system work as it's supposed to. I am sure there will be a report and there will be legal action against any service member whose actions warrant. The US Navy takes navigation safety very seriously.

[Taichungman]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

That's not the relationship we have in the US. The US has an all volunteer military. They are not paid mercenaries.

They get pay and other benefits. But they are not our employees.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Our US military are employees of the (DOD) Department of Defense. It is headed by the Secretary of Defense who answers directly to the President
of the United States who answers to the citizens of the USA. Military troops are employees and have SOP's just like most big companies but also are subject to military punishment as they are aware of. The military should be held accountable and the truth be told as long as it's not a national security issue. We who are US citizens have to press our government for the truth or it might not come out.

[transmitterdan]

I have seen no evidence that anyone within the government is trying to hide anything in this case. Just as you seem to be sure the truth will not come out I am equally sure it will.

An employee can quit a job. A military service person cannot quit. There are big differences in so many other ways too.

These are young people given huge responsibility. They are due a certain amount of respect as their sacrifice keeps a majority of the world free.

Aircraft crash investigation reports typically take a year or more to be released. This is not much different. Please give it some time before jumping on the "bash the military" bandwagon.

[newhaul]

Here is an example of the timeframe for a proper investigation
NTSB releases likely cause of KOMO helicopter crash | KOMO
Took 2.5 years to do proper complete investigation.

[transmitterdan]

Hopefully this one won't take that long but it probably will.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

I have seen no evidence that anyone within the government is trying to hide anything in this case. ....
.....Please give it some time before jumping on the "bash the military" bandwagon.

Again, I am a supporter of the USA including their military might which protects all of us to have this discussion.

I have also said before, that the detailed "internal" investigation is not the issue.
That takes time and discretion before the military decides what should be released.
I accept and defend that!

What I am requesting, is that the basic physical COG/SOG history of the Fitz, be allowed to be released!

In any other marine Collision, that information would already be common knowledge to all investigation agencies and the public.
Foreign safety agencies, in whose waters the event took place, could openly release their own preliminary report freely as to the physical interaction between the two friendly ships.

Preventing that basic info from being released, is by definition...
"hiding"