US Navy destroyer collision

[DumnMad]

Yep photos indicate it wasn't the bulbous bow but also indicate it wasn't the bow at all.
This video demonstrates better what I was talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niAn...ature=youtu.be

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Bernoulli effect lift does not need a narrow channel, just needs proximity and is much stronger if the water is shallow.
Here's a full scale collision to demonstrate the almost unbelievable effect. The guy who took the video obviously knew a lot more about the effect than most.

I think that video was taken from the Pilot boat.

Port Said was one of my least favorite places to pick up and drop off Pilots.

Bunch of jammering Cowboys!

What I see there is more a case of 2 ships having dropped off pilots, getting bent out of shape and not being clear in their intentions.
The light blue hull in front seems to be holding at first.

The other ship commits itself to steering around light blue because there is a shoal area on his Stbd side.
LB gets underway and cuts off the other ship that is trying to avoid the bank.

Poor communication all around and the pilots see this as a big joke!
A$$wholes.

[JPA Cate]

Well, I can understand why any navy would want to practice running dark in TSSs. Just imagine wanting to re-take a town the enemy had overrun.

Agree something went dreadfully awry aboard the military vessel, and the skipper will be in deep trouble, too.

Ann

[boatman61]

Lotsa talk about what basically boils down to crap seamanship..
You can throw all kinds of garnish on Spam to jazz it up but when it comes down to it.. its just Spam.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think that video was taken from the Pilot boat.

Port Said was one of my least favorite places to pick up and drop off Pilots.

Bunch of jammering Cowboys!

What I see there is more a case of 2 ships having dropped off pilots, getting bent out of shape and not being clear in their intentions.
The light blue hull in front seems to be holding at first.

The other ship commits itself to steering around light blue because there is a shoal area on his Stbd side.
LB gets underway and cuts off the other ship that is trying to avoid the bank.

Poor communication all around and the pilots see this as a big joke!
A$$wholes.

That was nothing to do with dropping pilots... 'The incident occurred when the Maersk Tanjong was clearing the Suez Canal Container terminal (on the northern end of the canal) to join the second convoy, whilst the Colombo Express was already proceeding through (with) the convoy at the same point.'

Maersk Tanjong just mis-judged her run.... was all...

https://gcaptain.com/containerships-collide-suez-canal/

There is AIS vid out there somewhere showing how that happened... and a lonnnnnng discussion on CF....

[Pelagic]

Tnks El Pinguino.... I guess my hatred for Suez pilots was showing[emoji17]

[Lodesman]

There's more to ship interaction than Bernoulli - at the bow and the stern, there are pressure zones and the suction zone is in the middle. As Pingo says, this isn't a case of suction. Should probably wait until there is at least an initial investigation report, before we initiate the court martial.

[psk125]

Damage on the tanker in photos is to it's bow. The tanker has major protrusions for its anchor housings.

[Trond123]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Was she practicing dead reckoning smack in a TSS?

There is no TSS in the area where the warship "Helge Ingstad" and the tanker "Sola TS" collided.
But there is a caution area, marked on the navigation maps, requiring all ships to proceed with caution, due to the oil terminal.

Based on radar track, at the time of collision, the ships were about 900 meters from the nearest shallows.

A video in this article (link below) from the Norwegian news site VG, shows the radar tracking of the event, including (parts of?) the authentic VHF communications between VTS, Sola TS and Helge Ingstad. (All VHF communication is in Norwegian only).
Notice also the 3 coastal freighters sailing parallell to Sola TS, northbound on Sola TS' starboard side, limiting Sola TS navigation options. It is reported that several of the nearby ships were unable to understand what happened, due to the VHF communication in Norwegian instead of English.
VTS appears a little passive in the event.

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/...source=vgfront

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Easy there ... you will damage your head.

Running under the bow of another ship in such a manner that half your ship is on her port bow, the other half is on her starboard bow, while the middle bit of your ship has been hit by the pointy end of the other ship does not count as 'close passing'....

Quit while you are in front... or show us the hat you are getting the rabbits out of.....

OK I quit. The radar confirms what you say

[psk125]

It appears from articles and reports that the destroyer did alter course during the episode - by turning perhaps 5º to PORT, rather than to starboard. This brought them across the bow of the tanker so that they hit starboard to starboard, with the anchor housing of the tanker apparently ripping into the aft starboard quarter of the destroyer. The warship was pushed by tugs into shallower water and tied off to the shore to keep it from sinking. Then the fun began. Salvage operators were contacted, but the most experienced firm was deemed too expensive. The steel cables used to tie off the ship then proceeded to break - this while the chain manufacturer that supplied chain to the successful salvage operations of the Costa Concordia was only a few miles away from the grounded destroyer. The destroyer has now sunk, with only it's radar equipment showing above water at high tide.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Well, I can understand why any navy would want to practice running dark in TSSs. Just imagine wanting to re-take a town the enemy had overrun.

Maybe they were practicing disrupting shipping by causing chaos and collisions in the TSS.


If so, then I guess the exercise was a big success.

[TrentePieds]

A bit cynical, isn't it Dockhead :-)?

In any case, that there would be a TSS in Hjeltenfjord was my speculation since it seems unreasonable that there wouldn't be one. But we now have it from a local man that in fact there isn't one, although there IS a "control zone" controlled by Fedje Traffic Control Centre. located at the northern end of Hjeltenfjord. See post 1029

I am boggled to think that in a peace-time exercise the KNM would not have tipped off the TCC to stand quietly by in full knowledge of F313's position precisely to preclude accidents such as this. I woulda thot, since Fedje looks directly down the length of the fjord to the south, that the TCC should have had a radar track of her. Fedje TCC in fact DOES tell the tanker EXPLICITY that F313 entered Hjeltenfjord "some time ago" but doesn't know precisely where he is. That sez the Fedje saw her as she went by, turning down into the fjord. It would have been pitch dark in the fjord at that time, prior to 0400 at 60ºN, so I assume they saw her on the radar. So why did they lose her?

Seems to me that quite a few of the lads need to be sent to the principal's office!

TP

[psk125]

The Fedje people obviously knew the destroyer was there and that it was running dark with its AIS off. All vessels - even military- appear to have to register with them before entering the traffic control area. They probably didn't want to say any more than necessary about it, possibly figuring that it might be on some military mission & operating under radio silence. F313 obviously showed up on the tanker's radar, and then answered when the tanker called them on the radio. Too little, too late. Too bad.

[TrentePieds]

PSK 125:

You are saying explicitly what I was hinting at. There can be NO doubt that Fedje knew with precision where each ship was. Sola was contrained on her starboard side by Silver Firda, Vestbris, and Seigrunn all of which were running faster than Sola and obviously in the act of passing her. Sola could NOT turn to starboard without risking collision with these ships. Fedje can NOT have been unaware of that, since these ships were all cargo vessels and, presumably, not only showing on Fedjes radar but also on her AIS.

I agree with you that Fedje had no doubt been ordered by KNM to keep silent about F313's position in order to facilitate the exercise. A damned if you do and damned if you don't situation as far as the VTCO was concerned. F313 had apparently been running on her course towards Sola for something like twenty or twenty five minutes after she cleared Fedjebjörnen immediately below the TCC before the collision took place. The distance is 7NM or thereabouts.

Given the constraints that were on Sola and the severity of the risks emerging, Fedje COULD have broken radio silence and told F313 to lie by awaiting resolution of the situation. Maybe its worth noting that it is said that the Nansen class frigates can stop from their published speed of 27 knots in three lengths, say 1,200 feet. But instead of taking so obvious a measure Fejde denies EXPLICITY that she knows F313's position and Fedje CONFIRMS that denial when a worried OOW on Sola queries it again. Can that denial really be believed?

Alternatively Fedje, being a CONTROL centre, could have told Sola to take her way off till all three vessels to her starboard had passed her and then alter to starboard. I appears from the plot that Seigrunn, the last in line of the three, would have passed Sola in five or six minutes if Sola had taken her way off. IOW if Fedje had issued such an order when F313 was halfway from Björnen to Stureterminalen, there would, I think, have been no collision.

Anyway, that is all speculation, but I'll be reading the eventual report with great interest. This one strikes me as having been entirely avoidable and as having very few extenuating circumstances.

TP