US Navy destroyer collision

[hellosailor]

In some ways, a real shooting ware actually makes GPS more reliable. When the dogs are unleashed, the USAF has a simple solution. They send up aircraft with antiradiation missiles, the same basic type used against antiaircraft radar bases, and they just aim them at the strongest point of "GPS" signals. Missile fired, jammer obliterated. In very short order.

While there are many more jammers and jamming incidents out there, it still takes a bit more time and budget to do a wide area jam--and those are easily targeted and cleared. In shooting war.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

In some ways, a real shooting ware actually makes GPS more reliable. When the dogs are unleashed, the USAF has a simple solution. They send up aircraft with antiradiation missiles, the same basic type used against antiaircraft radar bases, and they just aim them at the strongest point of "GPS" signals. Missile fired, jammer obliterated. In very short order.

While there are many more jammers and jamming incidents out there, it still takes a bit more time and budget to do a wide area jam--and those are easily targeted and cleared. In shooting war.

Yea, it's pretty straight forward. You launch a $500,000 cruise missile at a $200 jamming device, wait an hour and repeat.

[Jim Cate]

Seems like folks managed to avoid most collisions with the use of radar and eyeballs... for a long time. Neither AIS nor GPS should be considered essential to avoid collisions in a narrow seaway such as this, so jamming of one and failure to use the other is no excuse IMO.

Jim

[TrentePieds]

Gentlemen: Please, let's not let this thread drift off into areas from which we can learn nothing about seafaring.

Let's stick to comments directly relevant to navigation - specifically collision avoidance.

TP

[newhaul]

I personally while following this current incident I feel it deserves its own thread.

[TrentePieds]

Newhaul:

I agree. Could you please report it with a request to separate it from that discussing the USN incidents? Merging threads is easy enuff. UNmerging threads is above my pay grade :-)

TP

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Newhaul:

I agree. Could you please report it with a request to separate it from that discussing the USN incidents? Merging threads is easy enuff. UNmerging threads is above my pay grade :-)

TP

request sent it should be split if for no other reason than respect for the lives lost.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Latest photos of Norwegian frigate.

[TrentePieds]

Thank you, Steadman :-)

I said yesterday that we need to be careful that we don't let this thread drift into realms that are essentially political. I also said that there will be a foofarah about the fact that F313 went from being seriously damaged to being a total loss due to the salvor's "error" in the choice of cables.

Now Bergen's Tidende (Bergen News, the local newspaper) is saying that the cables - steel wire - "broke as if it was sewing cotton", and the local manufacturer of chain is saying that "we have chain that would have done the job, and we could have supplied it on an hours notice"

I have made it clear that IMO the bridge watch on F313 must bear the brunt of the blame though Fedje VTS is not without fault. People among us, more experienced than I, seem to share that opinion. Now Befalets Fellesorganisasjon , the trade union that represents something like 9K members of the Norwegian military, is beating it's drum that it is unfair to blame members of the bridge watch. "You protect the Country - We protect You" is the motto of the organization.

It will be wondrous to watch how this organization will now attempt to becloud the enquiry's establishing of the facts of the case and a reasonable assigning of responsibility to the individuals involved.

Perhaps this collision demonstrates powerfully the old verity that you cannot run a ship by committee!

TP

[hellosailor]

Paul-
HARM's can cost way less than 1/2 million, and they're not cruise missiles, they are conventional missiles fired from aircraft. Their use in combat is also not against $200 boxes (although even 20 years ago the feds got upset on the publication of how to launch cheap GPS jammers on balloons) but against the rather more expensive jammers that are designed for cover many square miles, and do that solidly. And they don't just take out the box, they tend to leave a crater where any support personnel or other structure was.
But if it still costs 1/4 million or 1/2 million to turn off one jammer, versus whatever it will cost to salvage that Norwegian warship? Or prevent one other fleet collision? So what? That's the price of doing business, in that job.
If you don't want to pay the price, then you surrender and declare game over.

[a64pilot]

HARM is an acronym, everything Military is.
It’s a High Speed Anti Radiation Missile, used in the Vietnam era on the F-4G “Wild Weasel” aircraft for SEAD, or suppression of Enemy Air Defense. A rather “Ballsy” mission.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Weasel
While the basic concept still exists, it has evolved greatly since the Vietnam days, so much so that I believe during the first Gulf War, no Iraqi Air Defense Radar was ever used twice.
Even some Army helicopters have the capability to suppress Air Defense Artillery.
But in simple terms, if it radiates, even for a few seconds, it can be made to go away, even if it’s no longer radiating.

[TrentePieds]

Gentlemen: In #1054 I issued a gentle warning against letting this thread drift off into politics. It will take considerable discipline for every one of us not to let it do that :-)!

I wish to augment that warning with one not to let the thread drift into the technicalities of US defense and weaponry, let alone strategy and tactics.

We, in this forum, are ONLY concerned with matters directly related to navigation and ship-handling!

I just hate having to use the "delete" button :-)!!

TP

[Uricanejack]

Can’t say I have spotted politics. Might just be my lack of observation.

Though hearing the Norwegian Navy has a Union, kind of warms my heart and no doubt irritates politicians. Scandinavians ehh. Free medical, Holiday camps instead of prisons, what ever will they think of next.

Blame, is a very ineffective way of preventing accidents. Determining why an accident happened. Without focusing on blame is much more efffective.
Which is why organizations who specialize in accident investigation do so without without blame. NTSB, TSB, MAIB do not blame.

Navy or military do not have to take part in civilian investigations and can conduct thier own. Not sure what the Norwegian equivalents to the NTSB is called. I expect the Norwegian Navy is cooperates with it.

Will heads roll? In the end possibly. Scandinavians do tend to be understanding and prefer rehabilitations to punishment so perhaps not.

I doubt if even New age Norwegian unionized navy ships are run by committees.

[Pete7]

I think a lot of the worlds Navies will be looking closely at this and thinking "there by the grace of God............"

They are certainly looking closely at it.


Pete

[a64pilot]

As far as Unions and Military, I took the Dutch the first Apaches to them to look at to Arnhem in 1994 I believe, when we landed we were told they were in the field. What that meant to them was that they had set up tents on the airfield, and gone home to sleep, seems the Union frowned upon them having to spend the night away from home.
Now don’t take me wrong, they were very Professional, and exceedingly good pilots, it just seemed odd that they got to go home every night.
The whole Dutch “Thing” was an eye opener to me.