WE'RE RACING!!!!!!

[sandy stone]

I'm a (sometime) racer, and I would never interfere with a non-racing boat, heat of competition or not. But I don't think there is a racer on the planet who would alter course so as not to cross your bow at 1/4 mile. Another boat whose closest approach will be 1/4 mile is not even on the radar for racers. 100 yards, maybe.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It depends on what else is around (traffic, obstructions, etc.), speed, maneuverability of the boats in question, and the crossing in question. If it's clear you're crossing my stern, or you're overtaking on a parallel course, a few hundred feet is close, but tolerable. If you're crossing my bow in open water with lots of room to adjust course, I'd consider anything within a 1/4 mile to be needlessly close.

It seems we live in different worlds literally and figuratively. I'm fine with a crossing that's 2~3 boat lengths during non racing conditions and your not. That's ok, I'm in Trinidad and it appears you're in New York, our crossings should be quite distant!

One last funny story, then I'll exit this conversation. We were a couple hundred miles east of Bermuda and 600 miles North of Antigua. It was about 2 in the morning, dark and raining, I was off watch. We were sailing south at around 10 knots but we're being overtaken by another boat doing 12 to 15 knots. One of the crew woke me and said someone is sailing right at us with a closure distanced of zero. So I got up and looked at the AIS. It was a pretty famous racing catamaran we had met in Maine earlier that summer. I talked with the skipper on the vhf about thier passage, where they were going, had they caught any fish, were they eating well, what Caribbean races they were sailing that season. We never talked about how close we might come, it honestly never crossed my mind and I never bothered to look.
The funniest part was the crew mate who woke me wanting to know how I knew someone in the middle of the Atlantic.

Anyways, don't worry about the racers they keep an eye out for other boats and while it may seem close it's not too them and they are capable sailors.
Fair winds

[caradow]

Wow against my better judgement I have to respond to such animosity against racers.

I would like to put sailboat racing in some perspective to those who are uninitiated.

Basically there is simple beer can racing where you go out in the afternoon and have fun. Here you find the beginner racers unfamiliar with the rules ,boat handling and sail trim yet some are aggressive and need some education. Mixed in with those are the more experienced. Yet many infringements occur sometimes with cruisers. Those racers can be quite aggressive but without knowing the rules and how to handle their boat they can be a PITA. But one needs know there is only so much you can learn in a book. So they get out and bump their heads and boats now and then.

Next are the club racers where they go out on a weekend and have a few races.
These are a little more experienced with less confrontations with cruisers but mostly with each other.

The third group are the one-design crowd who are excellent boat handlers. These boats all look the same and easily identified. Best to just stay out of their way. An observant cruiser should be able to see these boats from a distance.
When cruising and I see these fleets I avoid the entire race course that are easily identified by inflatable drop marks. What's it hurt to take a tack of fall off a bit?

Several other classes that for the sake of brevity will lump together and just call them advanced. These classes are loaded with Pros and despite the sometimes larger boats they cross within a few feet of each other.

So the intensity of racing can be overwhelming at times.
As an example I raced J-35's one design for 4 years on the east coast from the western LIS to Newport RI. Despite windward-leeward courses that were most of the time less than 10 miles it was not unusual for the first 5-6 boats finishing overlapped. Sometimes in winds over 20-25 kts with boats crossing a few feet from each other. So this is just stated to give an example of how competitive a racing fleet can be. And YES if it was possible for me to to politely ask a cruiser for room I am guilty. A few feet could be the difference in winning or losing.

Today I am mostly a cruiser but will hop on a race boat now and then and enjoy the race and the comradery of the right crew. I have also raced Star boats and Etchells. I have participated in numerous National Events in all 3 classes including a world championship with about a 100 boats on the starting line. Looking back I have NEVER pissed off a cruiser so diplomacy also works on the water.
There are some great racers who I would not trust to anchor my boat and there are long time cruisers that know very little about sail trim.
Both racers and cruisers sometimes have egos that need to be tempered.

[marcjsmith]

Originally Posted by Joli

Anyways, don't worry about the racers they keep an eye out for other boats and while it may seem close it's not too them and they are capable sailors.
Fair winds

I seem to recall a VOR boat running aground and another running over some
Fishermen in se Asia. I was rail meat on a race boat on stbd and port tacker holed us. So not all racers keep their eyes open for other boats or land for that matter

So like any boat vs boat encounter a healthy dose of caution is warranted.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You don't care about sail trim on a 500-mile trip from Chesapeake to Fl???

I, sir, doubt your veracity.

I don't. Chances are he is using the ICW where possible and motoring, and except for the rare occasions when is he's outside and actually sailing he will probably be motoring with the mainsail up and is calling it "motorsailing".

The vast majority on boats I've seen in coastal or near coastal waters are doing that. Even offshore, it is not unusual.

Yeah, I believe he's not too concerned about sail trim.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If you're sailing within a few boat lengths of me and it's not confined waters, I'd be sounding 5 short and likely would have turned to increase separation regardless of the situation. In a confined space, a few boat lengths is often reasonable. But if there's a mile or more of clear water around me in every direction, I'd consider that unacceptably close (except maybe in an overtaking scenario).

So, within a few boat lengths you'd blow your horn 5 times instead of looking right at me and saying, "Hey! You're a bit close don't you think, Captain?".

[goboatingnow]

Why are we having this discussion.

Common courtesy would suggest non racers try , if possible , to avoid hindering racers.

If it’s not obvious , a request to provide the racer room should be accepted , if again , it’s possible to do so. Simple courtesy.

No you can’t be “ bullied “ into doing something unsafe but that’s understandable.

Many racers mix up COLRegs and racing rules. But still courtesy should be extended where practical

We are leisure sailors. No time to be anywhere particular

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I'm not sure where you sail, but that doesn't match with my experience. There's a difference between 'able to sail well' and 'want to sail well.' The people that don't want to sail - don't. They motor. If anyone goes through the effort of hoisting the sails, then there's some desire to be propelled by those sails. Whether they have the skill or talent to do that well is a matter of perspective. I've never met anyone, who wanting to be propelled by the sails, does not try to do better than barely moving.

Come to the Ionian you might change your mind.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I don't. Chances are he is using the ICW where possible and motoring, and except for the rare occasions when is he's outside and actually sailing he will probably be motoring with the mainsail up and is calling it "motorsailing".

Well when he says he's on a "lazy sail on a coastal trip" I can only assume that means he's not using the ICW. Granted he might be motor-sailing, but that doesn't support the premise that anyone who is trying to be propelled by their sails would not give a fig about sail-trim. Maybe I should have been more specific - if someone goes to the trouble of hoisting their sails and turns off the motor, then they want to make better speed than barely moving.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Come to the Ionian you might change your mind.

All these pathetic "sailors" that sit there in irons with the sails flogging aren't going to be able to get out of the way of the racers, now are they - so it's a moot point. The racers will have to stay out of the way.

[WPotter1950]

Originally Posted by pete c

That is a good point. I suppose it was possible that all his lines and rudder were jammed.

In that case, I imagine that such an alert and well trained racing crew would have had the DELTA flag flying.

[Rhod72]

This reminds me of racing on the swan river in Perth, Western Australia. 4 separate clubs race on saturday afternoons. One afternoon a boat from a different club yelled out to inform us that they were racing as they tried to sail through SoPYC Division 2 who were on starboard tack. Collisions were avoided and words were exchanged. Shortly after they managed to broach. As we sailed past we enquired if they were still racing.

[lhogdenwa]

This is my "go to" rule in most situations: USCG Rule 8 - Action to Avoid Collision;(f)(iv) "When in doubt, chicken out".

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It depends on what else is around (traffic, obstructions, etc.), speed, maneuverability of the boats in question, and the crossing in question. If it's clear you're crossing my stern, or you're overtaking on a parallel course, a few hundred feet is close, but tolerable. If you're crossing my bow in open water with lots of room to adjust course, I'd consider anything within a 1/4 mile to be needlessly close.

Wow , you need to seriously come sailing in the crowded med, a yacht passing a half boat length in front is considered “ loads of space “ by many. You’d die of fright here.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Wow , you need to seriously come sailing in the crowded med, a yacht passing a half boat length in front is considered “ loads of space “ by many. You’d die of fright here.

In crowded or confined waters, it's different. There's only so much space to give without something else becoming a problem. So there's no choice about passing somewhat close. It's when people do it despite having tons of empty water to work with that it bothers me.