What happens when your mast hits an opening bridge

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by ohdrinkboy

You forgot...if you hire a captain, check his insurance.

More importantly check his experience and reputation.. anyone can set themselves up as a delivery skipper and claim vast experience.. but a little thought will often show that their claims do not reflect what is really possible given their age and/or mileage claims.. expensive does not always mean good just as cheap does not always mean bad..

[UNCIVILIZED]

As to being a captain, there's not a part of one's qual's that necessitate your having had much, if any, real world experience with bridges. Sure there's sections of knowledge that one needs to possess, but that's a world away from having had lots of hands on time at the helm as a river pilot. Consider someone who earned their ticket via sea time in SoCal. They'll have about zero real world time on rivers, or in dealing with opening bridges. So...

You also need to know that there are a LOT of bridge tenders out there who are reluctant at best to open the bridges. Since they get all kinds of calls & complaints each time they do. Whether opening them is fully warranted or not. Since landsmen don't really understand the importance of opening bridges. Let alone what it's like trying to drive a vessel through them, while being subject to malevolent currents. Or planning ahead should the vessel suffer a mechanical (engine or rudder) casualty while transiting a half open bridge.

Thus, bridges tend to only open enough (in the tender's view) to allow the vessel to pass through. And then only for long enough for the boat to make the transit. Where, it's quite common for bridges to begin to close long prior to a vessel completing it's passage through them while they're "open". And few folks, on the water, or in the bridge control station, plan for emergencies during said transit. With the boat, or the bridge.

Don't plan on seeing a bridge being fully open. Period. Whether it's prevented from doing so by it's mechanical limits. Or by those operating it. Nor should you plan on it being open for long, nor acquiescing to your wishes as to how things should be. Well, unless you tie up somewhere near it & know who to call in order to pressure the tender into changing his habits. And even then, you'll likely be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Since the tender of that bridge will know the tender's of others along your route, & all it takes is for him to make a few calls... to other bridge tenders. Or to the 1,001 folks that he knows along your route, to muck up your passage.

Folks don't take strangers messing with their livelyhood well. And honestly, few sailors (pro & otherwise) know what goes into the operation of bridge X, or Y. Including how far a bridge can actually open, or what the SOP's are for operating it.

And to play the what if game. Imagine that 5 or 25 miles away from the bridge there's an emergency, & that on the route that those solving that problem need to take is the bridge. What then with regards to it's opening, or not, & for how long? Few people are ever privy to such information, yet quite a few are likely to be affected by it.

Then of course there's the aspect that the bridge is probably quite a bit older than you are, & hasn't recieved the best maintenance throughout it's life. So that in truth it's mechanical's are sketchy at best. One only needs to watch the news in order to see tales of such things, & about our aging infrastructure.

Yet who here, on a website where there are a lot of serious sailors, knows all of the above, or a fraction of it? Ditto the dearth of knowledge shown by some of the questions already asked, re; the damage incurred to vessels when rigs get ripped out of them. This, when many/most of us in this thread more than have the experience to be a professional skipper of some sort.

[Pelagic]

Not sure what point you are trying to make Uncivilized.... We ask questions and suggest possibilities as part of the discussion

Bad things happen and the only value is in learning from mistakes and moving on.

https://youtu.be/hkBJuk7nckU

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatman61

More importantly check his experience and reputation.. anyone can set themselves up as a delivery skipper and claim vast experience.. but a little thought will often show that their claims do not reflect what is really possible given their age and/or mileage claims.. expensive does not always mean good just as cheap does not always mean bad..

Then there is the other side of that coin Boatie . ..
when all that experience is real but meanwhile the holder has become too long in the tooth to execute with the same stamina they had in the past....and make dumb mistakes.... Just saying! [emoji39]

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by GILow

OK, so the question to my mind is...

Is this sort of damage to be expected from such an incident? I mean I understand that these would not have been the normal forces that a mast would be subjected to, but I am quite surprised by the description of damage to bulkheads and stringers.

In my simplistic mind I just assumed the stays would have snapped, the mast would have come down in one more more pieces, anything immediately below the falling mast would have also been damaged.

I look at my boat and try to imagine that sort of damage and I just can't see it. And from what I understand, Ted Brewer designs are not lightweight toys.

Can anyone explain this for me?

Matt

Guys, seriously? Think about the breaking strength of wire rope. Especially on a 50'er. Now consider that the mast on any boat has from 6 to 12 stays holding it up. Each with a breaking strength of 1/3 - 1/2 the weight of the vessel. And that each is heavily connected to the bulkheads & structures of the boat. Enough so that by design, everything that's connected to the stay has a higher breaking load than does the wire rope it's constructed of. By a gigantic margin of safety.

Honestly, what do you think will happen to the boat when you start applying sudden loads to them that are strong enough to break the stays? This when the chainplates are bolted through simple plywood bulkheads. One's reinforced by structures built using egg crate construction, built of thin fiberglass, & low shear strength cores.

You're looking at minimum 10T per shroud connected to the mast in question. So for each one to break should the mast strike something at speed, the forces are akin to the weight of several cars striking a fixed structure (think WALL here) at that speed. With the subsequent damage that such impacts would cause. But in this case it's damage to relatively fragile materials, not metal. And how much damage does a 5-10mph vehicle collision cause? Easily $5-figures per vehicle. So then multiply that times the mass & strength differentials in play here. Specifically: 6+ stays/shrouds, at X-vehicles per rigging wire.

This with the caveat that striking a fixed structure often equates to striking another vehicle head on traveling at the same speed that you are. AKA several times the collision energy of a glancing blow with another vehicle of similar mass. Which is why I'm saying to compare it to striking a wall, head on, at speed in a car.

Also, consider what a mast rests on. The keel, & a number of wood or composite stringers. Then realize that based on simple physics, a mast is akin to the arrow in a bow, given how the shrouds & stays are trying to push it through the hull bottom when everything is at rest. Then when you impart breaking strength type loads on the stays, those loads will want to drive the mast through the bottom of the hull, amongst other force vectors imparted to it. Which, the combined breaking strength of all of the stays add up to many times what the vessel weighs. So that the loads on the; mast, mast step, stringers, & bulkheads are HUGE. AKA more than enough to destroy the boat, to cause her to tear apart enough to hole her & put her on the bottom. Or if you're lucky, to make her a write off.

The only reason that people aren't commonly killed during dismastings, is that they happen so slowly. And that most of the crew have the sense to dive underneath of something solid, if they're not already below decks. Such are the level of forces involved.


With reference to all of the above, consider that few people actually know these things, have experienced them, or thought them through. Professional skippers included. So that unless you're a boat designer, insurance guy, or engineer, such destruction tests have never been part of your thought processes or experience. And the levels of forces involved, & the damage that they do, may be new to a person. Ergo, cut the folks involved in this incident some slack.

[rognvald]

We saw a catamaran get caught in the current at Jewfish Bridge in the Florida Keys in the YTK and partially dismast. The damage was considerable. A few considerations we follow when approaching bridges:

1.Direction of current
2.Direction of wind
3.Traffic
4.depths outside the channel

If we oppose the tide/current, we can approach the bridge and maintain a closer position. If the tide/current is behind us, we call at least 100 yards from the bridge and get our information and hold no less than 75 yards from the bridge until it begins to open. Our sails are always furled. If there is an engine failure, we have enough time and distance to drop our hook. "Sailing" the intercoastal is one of my least favorite things on a boat. Good luck and safe sailing.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Sorry if I ain't clear guys. I'm under-caffeinated as yet for the day. Perhaps later I'll take a shot at clarifying things.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Sorry if I ain't clear guys. I'm under-caffeinated as yet for the day. Perhaps later I'll take a shot at clarifying things.

Naw I got it on your last post....give them some slack...including the skipper....I agree! [emoji111]

[gaucho]

Im amazed at some of the hate I can read through the lines. Yes, they are a pair of somewhat naive young people trying to re-create the sailing youtube channel phenomena. Hey, if they can pull it, the more the merrier! Here is a link to the actual incident for those who are not familiar with it. You can also see some of the damage on the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqDETB3I9bo

Aside from that, the boat they had is NOT a Ted Brewer design. It's a Celestial 48, which has been attributed to everyone and no one throughout the years (more info below).

Celestial 48: A Center Cockpit Cruising Sailboat Worth Dreaming About « www.yachtworld.com www.yachtworld.com

I was truly amazed that the mast didn't snap, but then again it was full frontal. The chainplate fiberglass assembly gave up before the cable. Makes sense maybe because the roller furler guide plus the actual sail where there, making it a tougher element to snap, and thus just pulling the stay out of the ship.

This opens a door for discussion about the whole USCG licensing system. I am not 100% familiar with it, but find it amazing that there is no actual human being ever evaluating if you can actually drive a boat. It's the whole multiple choice standarized testing dilemma of the US all over again. The "pool of questions" way of licensing, teaching and learning. There is no human evaluation that allows a bit more selection with the human element into consideration. I have seen tests like the RYA Yachtmaster and cannot understand how someone could study at home, show some easily botched sea-time (you could be a cook on a huge boat and add sea time and know nothing about navigation) and show themselves and get a 6 pack license. I sincerily do not understand how this can really work. Anyhow, they got one of the bad ones, who showed poor judgement. Because precisely judgement doesn't come into consideration on multiple choice tests. It's a weird system in the best case scenario.

Regarding the bridge operator ... stopping the bridge midway without any visual and auditive cues is really crappy. Anyone knows what level of liability bridge/county/city have in situations like this?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Then there is the other side of that coin Boatie . ..
when all that experience is real but meanwhile the holder has become too long in the tooth to execute with the same stamina they had in the past....and make dumb mistakes.... Just saying! [emoji39]

Will let you know when I can't vault a roadside railing anymore.. or climb a 72ft mast unaided..

[Scott Berg]

Wow... first of all most captains I know carry their own insurance; whether it is primary to the yacht's policy or secondary is an open question. What a mess... just hoping the boat owners receive a full recovery from the Captain... that's why they hired a professional in the first place!

[boatman61]

My experience with bridges on the ICW is I don't move till the bridge has stopped moving and the Go signal is on or.. the Go is indicated by the operator waving me through.. also I don't go so close as to get into a bad situation.. but then I'm never in a rush.. no reason.
No hate here.. just saying how folks should operate and stay safe.
Hope things are not as bad as first thought and they can move on with the dream.

[a64pilot]

Don't know what to say. Three yrs ago when we bought our boat, neither of us had ever sat foot on a sailboat before and we had to bring her around from Daytona to the Panhandle of Fl so we hired a Pro Capt.
Heck of a nice guy, but frankly he made a questionable decision or two and I very politely sort of took charge, I am sure this didn't upset him and I believe he felt as if he was mentoring me to take over so it all was very friendly.
Bottom line as someone else said, nobody cares for your boat, as much as you do.

But what really, really astonishes me is these people were going to start a Circumnavigation? Are they insane? With three years experience and several decent length crossings etc., we are no where near ready for that, in some respects we are just learning how much we don't know, and what all else we need to learn. I think maybe after our first year of full time cruising we may start out, or that is the plan anyway, but to just jump in is nuts.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Will let you know when I can't vault a roadside railing anymore.. or climb a 72ft mast unaided..

Addendum; another thing.. In my experience Stoopid is not age related.. done many stupid things ever since I could walk..

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Scott Berg

Wow... first of all most captains I know carry their own insurance; !

That is interesting..... What kind of insurance?

I am more familiar with the Superyacht industry, where the professional captains I know...do not carry insurance other than their own medical.

If a yacht owner formally hires a captain then they are covered under the yacht's policy.

Is this a small boat delivery thing worldwide ?