What happens when your mast hits an opening bridge

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I suspect a bit of class warfare is creeping in here.. all this concentration on 'Professional'..

WTF. By professional I mean "licensed and getting paid". I suspect you have issues with class divisions, old chap, and are misinterpreting my use of the word.

Originally Posted by boatman61

If a person drives for a haulage company in their vehicle does he require a separate insurance for stupid accidents.. or the driver of a dustcart.. in my eyes whoever earns a living from what they do and do it competently they are professionals.. you will find the self serving selfish idiots don't last long in the job.. make one bad decision/prang whatever and the door to making a living in that field is slammed shut.. your only ever remembered for the last 'Bad Job'.. the 100 successes before are irrelevant.
As an independent gas fitter/heating installer I had to carry insurance to cover faulty work resulting in death and destruction.. however after checking around I found that carrying Liability for accident/illness for myself and crew was sufficiently acceptable.. with the owners insurance for the vessel I command and me being approved by the insurers sufficient.

If you're certain and have done your due diligence that the insurance on every vessel you command is adequate and covers gross negligence on your part, then you've been responsible.

Originally Posted by boatman61

And.. if you'd bothered to read an earlier post all this is clearly stated in my terms and conditions contract.. I'm kinda upfront with nothing to hide.

Not my job to paw through your earlier posts. You responded to my post, which was not about you.

Originally Posted by boatman61

However.. just for you and Keno if you ever need a Transat delivery I will happily take out the liability insurance you seem to think essential to saving your no claims premiums.. but.. it would mean bumping up my usual fee considerably.. you pay.. I'll play..
Only claims ever.. lightening strike.

No claims premiums? Not sure what you're talking about.

The fact that securing that liability insurance would bump up your fee considerably says something very important the insurance risk, if you know anything about actuarial tables and how insurance companies calculate premiums. Or I suppose you'd could be doing it out of sheer spite and pride. Or maybe you're just a cheap date to begin with, lol

[rwidman]

You should never count on a bridge opening. It may be a restricted bridge, there may be an emergency vehicle approaching (or a train) or the bridge might be broken or fail in the process of opening for you.


If you hit the bridge, that's a shame, but it's on you, nobody else.


If you've contacted the operator and made plans to go under the bridge and the operator lowers it before you pass through, that's a different story. That's on the operator.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Suijin

No claims premiums? Not sure what you're talking about.

The fact that securing that liability insurance would bump up your fee considerably says something very important the insurance risk, if you know anything about actuarial tables and how insurance companies calculate premiums. Or I suppose you'd could be doing it out of sheer spite and pride. Or maybe you're just a cheap date to begin with, lol

No class issues here mate.. born Upper Class and worked my way down..
Here in the UK, and I believe the EU.. if you make no claims for X years you get a % discount on your annual premiums.. this can build up to 40%+ over time depending on the company your with.. make a claim and 'Poof'.. you can near double the payment you've worked down to.. which is why many settle small dings out of their own pocket.
How much would you estimate a separate one off Liability for a $500K boat.. or a $50K across the Atlantic would cost me..
I'd have to get it to pass an acceptable survey.. then the owner usually is not prepared to pay for the required fixes and that's just the beginning.. its not as simple as you and others seem to think..
Also.. if I carried 'Liability' and on inspection by the insurers surveyor it was judged unseaworthy despite crossing 4000nm before hitting say an uncharted obstacle approaching a marina do you honestly think they'd cough up...
Dream On..
As they say about Brexit.. You want to have your Cake.. and eat it..
Also.. remember.. many of the boats I've delivered a Yachtmaster or 3 have walked away from..
If I was working 12mths a year maybe it may be worth the investment.. however last year I did one Transat (7weeks) and one Med trip (9days)
so for me.. the way I operate works fine.. I'm not a company with employees I'm a one man band with access to favoured crew in search of travel with all expense's paid.
Suggest you avoid my kind and go to the $500+/day companies..
I promise not to be offended..

[Sandibar]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Sandibar,
A young, inexperienced couple with an incompetent captain undertake a circumnavigation and hit a bridge resulting in major damage/total loss in the Intercoastal. I don't think this needs a more detailed explanation. However, your perspective certainly reflects how you feel and certainly the feelings of others. Good luck and safe sailing.

Haha, I don't want to beat a dead horse (see I know some of these ), but still would like to add something: I think they were heading for the Carribean with the captain they hired. Never been there, but I understand it's not the most horrible or demanding place to learn sailing. I don't see how their future plans have anything to do with the crash. What they did so far, before moving to the ICW, suggests to me they were prudent. Just bad luck with the captain.

But my specific question was how does one gain experience, if not by sailing? This is not directed at you Rognvald, but to anyone. When we moved our boat to the marina first time, I had never steered a displacement boat. First time sailing I spent half a day with my very competent brother-in-law close to home. After that it was slow learning with the family on the water. My point is everyone starts with no experience and you don't accumulate any sitting at the dock.

Edit: granted we weren't planning a circumnavigation anytime soon. I totally agree with you that that seems outright foolish.

[Suijin]

Don't worry Boatie, I won't hire you, but it's because I don't need to.

I suppose insurance works differently in the UK but I suspect not that differently. What I was referring to was general liability insurance that most professionals (i.e., independent contractors, who work for themselves and not company, and do it for a living) carry. We're not talking about carrying your own insurance policy on the boat itself. And general liability requires that the client (or in some cases their insurance carrier) sue you and prove that your negligence was the cause of the incident.

The whole point of it is that someone has to pay when the captain is negligent, and the client's insurance company may decline a claim from the client based on the fact that the boat was being piloted by a professional at the time. General liability not only protects the professional, it protects the client as well, who otherwise might be out a huge sum. In the case of the couple that hit the bridge, if their insurer finds gross negligence on the part of the captain they might decline the claim and in that case this young couple is probably close to wiped out.

If you needed to have every boat you delivered surveyed in order for your general liability policy to cover it, I'd be very surprised.

As you say you operate in a very specific "slice" of the market. If you're satisfied based on your conversations with insurance carriers that your clients will be made whole if you do something galactically stupid, or the client knows the risk and accepts it, then I think you're being responsible.

Here in the US the USCG license is unfortunately a generally ubiquitous requirement for this kind of work. I say unfortunate because it's a worthless piece of paper that means nothing and gives clients who don't know better false confidence. With the license comes the expectation that you're operating as a business in a responsible manner, and there is absolutely no connection between the two at all.

[a64pilot]

The Capt. I hired, I assume he had no insurance, and I did not want him to have any, if he did then I am sure if something happened then the insurance companies would get to fight each other forever, while my boat sat not being repaired, and I didn't want that.
Maybe I'm uncommon in this, but the way I see it is if I'm on board, it's my boat. Anything that happens I'm ultimately responsible, just cause I hired someone else to help me regardless of their qualifications does not relive me of that responsibility. Isn't that Admiralty law or whatever its called?
In the Airplane world we call that PIC for Pilot in Command. If I'm getting a check ride from the FAA, I am still PIC and I, not the FAA are responsible for anything that occurs during that flight.
Interestingly enough I had no problem obtaining insurance, I was very upfront in telling them I had 0 sailboat experience, but they were fine as I had lots of "big boat" experience. 45' Sportfisherman

[boatman61]

Ahh.. but I'm not a Commercial Ocean Yacht Master..
I'm a freelance old fart..
Though I do relieve the owner of the extra liability insurance for accident/medical etc for paid crew he'd have to take out to cover myself and any crew.. that I carry as some deliveries are basic 3rd party liability only policies for the boats..
Notice how quiet the other delivery skippers here are... (D)

[a64pilot]

Boatie,
I was think more of like Mama Cass or Janis Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix etc.
None of them would make it today as they are not pretty enough to make video's

Tiny Tim, really?

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The Capt. I hired, I assume he had no insurance, and I did not want him to have any, if he did then I am sure if something happened then the insurance companies would get to fight each other forever, while my boat sat not being repaired, and I didn't want that.
Maybe I'm uncommon in this, but the way I see it is if I'm on board, it's my boat. Anything that happens I'm ultimately responsible, just cause I hired someone else to help me regardless of their qualifications does not relive me of that responsibility. Isn't that Admiralty law or whatever its called?
In the Airplane world we call that PIC for Pilot in Command. If I'm getting a check ride from the FAA, I am still PIC and I, not the FAA are responsible for anything that occurs during that flight.
Interestingly enough I had no problem obtaining insurance, I was very upfront in telling them I had 0 sailboat experience, but they were fine as I had lots of "big boat" experience. 45' Sportfisherman

Generally in the US your insurance company is directly liable to you for the repairs. It doesn't matter if there is another insurance policy that might be at play, they are primary on the claim.

Once they have paid you, or the yard then they get to start looking for other pockets to claim money from under indemnity. It might be another boat owner, it might be the captain you hired, or it might be the bridge tender, but all of that comes after they have paid you for your claim.

Note that I said generally. Marine insurance has few standard forms, and different policies can sometimes exclude weird things, or break with industry standards because the regulations are not as strict a standard in car insurance. But absent a clause in your insurance policy that denies coverage if the vessel is under the command of a paid captain (I have never seen one, or even heard of one) your insurance should cover the damage. If the captain has a liability policy, then your insurance can go after him for repayment.

But it's easy to check, ask your insurance company to confirm in writing that you are covered while a paid captain is in command. Unless you have a named operator only policy I would be shocked if they had any issues.

[Cadence]

I can't help but ? professional Captain. Is there a CG requirement that is delivery captain?
Can I hang out a shingle saying I am a professional captain and omit the delivery. I am afraid they hired some YoYo claiming to be a professional Captain, what ever that is, and are screwed unless they have something in the way of a contract and this guy has some assets worth going after.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I can't help but ? professional Captain. Is there a CG requirement that is delivery captain?
Can I hang out a shingle saying I am a professional captain and omit the delivery. I am afraid they hired some YoYo claiming to be a professional Captain, what ever that is, and are screwed unless they have something in the way of a contract and this guy has some assets worth going after.

My thoughts exactly. In my opinion, when one calls themself a professional anything, the title needs to be backed up by some personal financial reponsibility. Otherwise, it's meaningless. And no, I don't think it's a boatowners responsibility to pay for a professional captains private liability insurance policy, any more than it's their responsibility to cover any other business owners personal business liability insurance cost.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

My thoughts exactly. In my opinion, when one calls themself a professional anything, the title needs to be backed up by some personal financial reponsibility. Otherwise, it's meaningless. And no, I don't think it's a boatowners responsibility to pay for a professional captains private liability insurance policy, any more than it's their responsibility to cover any other business owners personal business liability insurance cost.

Phew...!!!
I'm okay then..
If you check my site out nowhere do I claim to be a Professional..
Click on the link below.

I was getting paranoid thinking folks were picking on me.. time for a beer and chill out..

[SV DestinyAscen]

Not sure why you guys are giving boatman a hard time he's just telling it as it is as part of industry custom andpractice .

You can't compare across industries andjurisdictions.

As a reminder of how insurance works, you distribute the risk pool across as many as possible and calculate the risk and expected payout + profit margin. Delivery business by its nature is difficult to assess the risk because there's question re boat, experience of crew, weather and few "participants" - sure you can get a policy written up if you are willing to pay for it, but how many owners do?

Funny how the anti-regulation freedom types are the ones dissing what is essentially a small tradesman when it is suddenly their boat loss being imagined. Ha.

[boatman61]

No Worries SVDestiny.. I encourage em..
Love to wind em up and watch em go..

[Saleen411]

SV DestinyAscen;2307214]Not sure why you guys are giving boatman a hard time he's just telling it as it is as part of industry custom and practice .

Yea....I agree completely..... sheesh. Can't believe anybody would be giving Boaty a hard time.

In fact, if I desired a skipper, Boaty would be the FIRST call I'd make.

People need to get a grip.