Where did I go wrong?

[Leighpilot]

The only bad error was not taking a moment to tidy up the lines before starting the motor. There’s was no rush to start the engine.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

With the near universal adoption of furling headsails we have, in all practicality, lost the option of "dropping the headsail". As Ruksta says below, it isn't possible any more. People only put their headsails up and down at the dock, in a usually very tedious process involving a few helpers.







And because most sailboats have large genoas on the furler, they are ill prepared to either deal with strong winds or to go forward when the blow hits, too scary.



I would prefer to see folks get in the practice of raising and lowering their furling headsails at sea, and when short handed, use a smaller sail. It will be slower in light winds but safer when the blow hits.

Madness to try and lower a roller furling sail. This is a dockside job with lots of help.

At night run under a reefed mainsail even if light airs. Let the typical big genny pull the boat. This can be reefed quickly

30 knots is a bit of wind but nothing in the med. plan your sail area according , reef in daylight ( unless you have in mast )

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Madness to try and lower a roller furling sail. This is a dockside job with lots of help...

Please explain why lowering a roller furling sail has to be "madness".

Other than lack of practice, and most likely a lot of dirt in the groove which makes it hard to move, this is no different than lowering a headsail on a double grooved head foil system, which my wife and I do all the time.

The biggest problems, which I just mentioned, lack of practice and dirt in the groove, can be easily overcome by any owner and in fact are virtually eliminated by simply doing it often.

To drop a headsail one simply sheets it in to close hauled position, or more if possible, then one person goes forward to pull it down, inside the lifelines, while the other releases the halyard. (yes, a two person job). The person forward pulls down a few handfulls of the luff, then turns aft and pulls inboard any cloth which is falling over the lifelines, the turns back to the front and grabs some more luff. With a large genoa the second person, once they see the halyard is running free, can step to the leeward railing near the shrouds and pull the sail inboard there.

Within a very few moments the sail will on deck inside the lifelines and can be secured with a few sail ties or, as we do, bound down by a bungie cord rigged on deck for that purpose.

We've done this on our boat for 35 years and do not have any problem.

Racers, usually with two forward hands, do it as a matter of course.

The biggest problem for cruisers is simply to get off their fat A**es and do some work.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Please explain why lowering a roller furling sail has to be "madness".



Other than lack of practice, and most likely a lot of dirt in the groove which makes it hard to move, this is no different than lowering a headsail on a double grooved head foil system, which my wife and I do all the time.



The biggest problems, which I just mentioned, lack of practice and dirt in the groove, can be easily overcome by any owner and in fact are virtually eliminated by simply doing it often.



To drop a headsail one simply sheets it in to close hauled position, or more if possible, then one person goes forward to pull it down, inside the lifelines, while the other releases the halyard. (yes, a two person job). The person forward pulls down a few handfulls of the luff, then turns aft and pulls inboard any cloth which is falling over the lifelines, the turns back to the front and grabs some more luff. With a large genoa the second person, once they see the halyard is running free, can step to the leeward railing near the shrouds and pull the sail inboard there.



Within a very few moments the sail will on deck inside the lifelines and can be secured with a few sail ties or, as we do, bound down by a bungie cord rigged on deck for that purpose.



We've done this on our boat for 35 years and do not have any problem.



Racers, usually with two forward hands, do it as a matter of course.



The biggest problem for cruisers is simply to get off their fat A**es and do some work.

Managing a 130 % heavy roller furling genny on a windy foredeck with a typical husband and wife crewing is just that madness it’s totally unnecessary , uncalled for and just bad seamanship.

In a blow even if you sheet in you will not pull a big roller genny down you need a flat calm day.

It’s a big sail and in any wind will end up over the side

Sheer madness , roller furlers are not designed for this activity. Get hanked on headsails if you want To get involved in that nonsense

Racers use hanked on sails and have fit young crew. I did a fair bit in my young days. The bowman was a trapeze artist. There’s no comparison.

[rslifkin]

Agreed, if everything is maintained and working properly, there should be no reason you can't drop a sail on a furler. However, I'd only want to drop a sail if I couldn't furl it. Furling can be done from the cockpit, a sail drop can't, meaning there's more risk to the crew to drop the sail. If you can't reliably furl the sail under less than perfect conditions, I'd be taking a serious look at whether the installed furling setup is adequate and working properly.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Agreed, if everything is maintained and working properly, there should be no reason you can't drop a sail on a furler. However, I'd only want to drop a sail if I couldn't furl it. Furling can be done from the cockpit, a sail drop can't, meaning there's more risk to the crew to drop the sail. If you can't reliably furl the sail under less than perfect conditions, I'd be taking a serious look at whether the installed furling setup is adequate and working properly.

Roller Head sails can be furled in all conditions. The main is much more problematic.

If you can’t furl it , you certainly can’t lower it.

[lo2jones]

I agree with the “over reacting” comment, but that comes with the territory when you still have lots to learn, as we’ve all been there. My actions would have been to release the boom vang, depower in what means there were on the boat and bear away to blanket the jib with the main while a crew easily pulling the jib in to the appropriate amount, head back up and continue. Heading up in a “squall” or whatever, presents problems and dangers that wouldn’t be there otherwise, i.e. flogging sails, flailing sheets, not to mention the main boom that needs to be sheeted in now.

[JAFO]

One more item for your post-mortem:

- No line-cutter fitted to the prop. Fail.

[doctorbill]

I am no expert but just a thought: I consider the idea to let the genoa sheets fly to be something to essentially ALWAYS be avoided. Just the NOISE level of a large flogging genoa in 30 knots makes me start to feel panicked and out of control. Not to mention the whipping clew and lines are now a serious injury risk.
Easing sheets until just flogging while trying to furl = OK, letting the sheets fly free = no bueno.

Second, this brings up previous discussions I have read on here about best point of sail and configuration to furl the genoa. I used to try doing it head to wind and now do it downwind with much more success.

As I am continuously learning here, the sequence if I am correct could have been
1. Ease the main to depower
2. Turn and run with wind
3. Ease the genoa and furl to a reefed genoa (or furl it all in)
4. Head up to reef the main to second or third reef

Please comment if this is not correct. I really appreciate all the comments and this thread.

Lastly, no one has mentioned maybe going heave to. If you felt you needed time to collect yourself and crew and get your whits about you.

[Marathon1150]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Agreed, if everything is maintained and working properly, there should be no reason you can't drop a sail on a furler. However, I'd only want to drop a sail if I couldn't furl it. Furling can be done from the cockpit, a sail drop can't, meaning there's more risk to the crew to drop the sail. If you can't reliably furl the sail under less than perfect conditions, I'd be taking a serious look at whether the installed furling setup is adequate and working properly.

Fully agree. If the furler is correctly installed and working properly, furling the headsail should always be relatively easy.

I recently had to stop a highly experienced crew member from putting the furling line on a winch when the wind came up suddenly and the headsail would not furl by hand. It turned out that the line had slipped under a jerry can on deck (bad idea, but no easy alternative to deck-stored jerry cans) and created just enough friction to make furling difficult. The winch wouldn't have damaged anything in that particular case but I have read too many stories of people damaging the rig by using a winch instead of their heads.

[waterman46]

My own practice before starting engine is to put both jibsheets on their winches and pull in all slack. Then look ot them to see they are shipshape. And I am also sure I have violated this rule once in a while if in a big hurry.

Why be in a hurry to start engine ? You have offshore wind = safe with or without any means of propulsion. You did well to furl the jib, though I would have kept a bit out, why not? After the gusts settle and you have time to think, you probably would have decided to keep sailing.

[Marathon1150]

Originally Posted by JAFO

One more item for your post-mortem:

- No line-cutter fitted to the prop. Fail.

Agree given the large amount of rope and netting floating in various parts of the ocean. This article provides some useful test results for the multitude of cutters available:
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear...ter-test-30012

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by doctorbill

I am no expert but just a thought: I consider the idea to let the genoa sheets fly to be something to essentially ALWAYS be avoided. Just the NOISE level of a large flogging genoa in 30 knots makes me start to feel panicked and out of control. Not to mention the whipping clew and lines are now a serious injury risk.

Easing sheets until just flogging while trying to furl = OK, letting the sheets fly free = no bueno.



Second, this brings up previous discussions I have read on here about best point of sail and configuration to furl the genoa. I used to try doing it head to wind and now do it downwind with much more success.



As I am continuously learning here, the sequence if I am correct could have been

1. Ease the main to depower

2. Turn and run with wind

3. Ease the genoa and furl to a reefed genoa (or furl it all in)

4. Head up to reef the main to second or third reef



Please comment if this is not correct. I really appreciate all the comments and this thread.



Lastly, no one has mentioned maybe going heave to. If you felt you needed time to collect yourself and crew and get your whits about you.

While I don’t disagree with modern swept back spreaders and big overlapping Genoa the blanketing effect in my experience is limited.

In any big seas running downwind has to very carefully balanced against an unintended gybe , that can kill you or take the mast down

Head up to wind , sure there’s a racket , but reef in as quickly as practical.

I find with my traditional mast sail slides i have to head up wind to reef anyway as the sail is really difficult to haul down to the reef points.

again you should never have to do major reefing unexpectedly. If you do you haven’t planned ahead was fast enough. This is especially true at night. The last thing I want is hanging of the main mast trying to get a main sail down.


I agree depower with main sheets and job sheets I agree let nothing “ fly “

I agree always but always get into the habit of checking lines every time you have been sailing. I’m hyper vigilant and mercilessly pester the crew, never go into gear without checking.

In the med you have to be hyper conservative as big lows come from nowhere. It’s actually one of the most challenging places to sail. In Ireland for example we get way bigger storms but they are very accurately forecast as they are just lows streaming in from the Atlantic the med generates so many heat related storms that are unexpected , every regular sailor here in Greece has his bevy of “ big blows “ tails.

[wingssail]

"Madness"? your rigid view of the world is madness.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Managing a 130 % heavy roller furling genny on a windy foredeck with a typical husband and wife crewing is just that madness it’s totally unnecessary , uncalled for and just bad seamanship.

It is bad seamanship to have no headsail choice but a 130% genoa. A couple who cannot deal with a sail change should be sailing with a smaller jib.

In a blow even if you sheet in you will not pull a big roller genny down you need a flat calm day. Hogwash, you have not a clue what you're talking about

It’s a big sail and in any wind will end up over the side

Really, on what authority you can say that? It has never happened to us.

Sheer madness , roller furlers are not designed for this activity. Get hanked on headsails if you want To get involved in that nonsense

Racers use hanked on sails and have fit young crew. I did a fair bit in my young days. The bowman was a trapeze artist. There’s no comparison.

"Racers use hanked on sails and have fit young crew.".

Not true either. None of it. Only some bigger high-end boats these days are moving back towards hanked on sails. It is more common these days to see race boats with roller furling headsails on, and they will be small headsails, 100% usually. But racing boats everywhere in the world change headsails on a regular basis. There is no reason why cruising boats cannot do the same.

"Young, fit crew"? Fit?, yes, young?, not exclusively. High end professional programs attract young ('ish, 40's like) talented sailors for crew with older afterguard, but many racers, like ourselves, are geriatric sets. Even guys like Roy Disney and his bunch sailing the lasted iteration of Pyewacket are mostly senior citizens.

Goboatingnow, you have some rigid ideas totally detached from reality, and you are completely adamant about them, no flexibility at all. I just want to shake my head and laugh out loud

[R Hutcheson]

I don't know your boat or the area, but here are my thoughts for what it is worth. It sounds like you turned into the wind to furl the genoa. This exposes the sail to the full force of the wind and can cause it to be pushed into the spreaders potentially damaging the sail. Also, even if you are only making four knots to windward the sail now feels 34 knots not 30. That's a lot of pressure to pull against on a furling line. I would have fallen off to a deep reach instead, which would have most likely blanketed the genoa behind the main and caused her to collapse, also the 6 knots plus you would be making down wind would reduce the apparent wind on the genoa to 24 knots instead of 30. This should have made it easy for your crew to roll the genoa while you remained at the helm. You had plenty of sea room so running downwind for five minutes while the crew rolled up the sail and secured the sheets would not hurt you. If I felt I still needed to reef the main, I would then turn to windward, ease the mainsheet and reef. This can be difficult on some boats, if yours is one, and you have to be under engine to reef, (something you probably should try to resolve), then I would get a light and make absolutely sure I had no lines dragging before starting the engine. Good luck.