Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-01-2023, 20:57   #121
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,805
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
They're actually clearly delineated. Look at the special anchorage area in Duluth harbor for an example.

There is variation among them. The one in Duluth harbor is lightly used and there aren't any mooring balls. I believe it exists to allow people who live on Park Point to anchor their boats away from shore, since conditions are not amenable to docking a boat larger than a dinghy near shore without dredging.


I believe that the original intent with the special anchorages was that boats would not ordinarily enter, leave, or transit these anchorages at night.
Hmm, my mistake, I assumed there would be a special symbol which I was unable to find in Chart 1.

Never occurred to me that it would just be written out.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 06:24   #122
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Little Compton, RI
Boat: Cape George 31
Posts: 3,095
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I have never anchored in a “special anchorage”, but I cannot imagine not displaying an anchor light even if this was not legally required.

Even if the law does not require an anchor light I have no desire to be hit by another boat.
There are several special anchorages near me where traditionally unmanned barges were moored, sometimes for long periods. All they do is warn the sailor passing through that there might be unlit obstructions--if not a barge, then perhaps a huge steel mooring ball--and so caution should be used entering at night. I use anchorages like this all the time, and have no problem knowing that there may be unlit mooring balls, and that I should watch out for them.
It would be impractical, even in our day, to require an anchored, unmanned barge to show lights. The special anchorage provision accomodates that.
__________________
Ben
zartmancruising.com
Benz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:03   #123
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,386
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Does anyone know why the USA appears to be the only country which has these Special Anchorages? It can't be about volume. Other areas of the world have the same, or greater, densities of boaters.

The accommodation to older power-hungry lighting is good, but again, it's not a uniquely American situation. And of course, it's been well over a decade now that low power LED lighting has become the standard. This pretty much removes the power problem.

I realize it is the responsibility of foreign travellers to be aware of local rules and regs, but I bet a lot of world cruisers will be completely unaware of this unique situation. If I didn't hang out here, I'd never even think to ask whether an American designated anchorage is "Special."
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:06   #124
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,805
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Because it is hard to change regulations in large bureaucracies.

Most US boaters are not aware of them either.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:15   #125
Registered User
 
Chotu's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Does anyone know why the USA appears to be the only country which has these Special Anchorages? It can't be about volume. Other areas of the world have the same, or greater, densities of boaters.

The accommodation to older power-hungry lighting is good, but again, it's not a uniquely American situation. And of course, it's been well over a decade now that low power LED lighting has become the standard. This pretty much removes the power problem.

I realize it is the responsibility of foreign travellers to be aware of local rules and regs, but I bet a lot of world cruisers will be completely unaware of this unique situation. If I didn't hang out here, I'd never even think to ask whether an American designated anchorage is "Special."
It's actually exactly what Benz said above.

It was for commercial vessels to drop an unmanned barge, etc.

Over time, the harbors became crowded with private boats and mooring fields. These areas retained their Special Anchorage status, Which makes a lot of sense because moorings are the primary way people store boats in the Northeast. marinas have a few docks. But the mooring fields are where a lot of the boats go.

When this changeover from commercial working harbors to recreational harbors happened, solar panels weren't invented yet

No continuous anchor lights. It was small batteries. Boats with almost no electrical system. Lights/batteries didn't last for weeks on unattended commercial vessels that were at anchor. Same for the mooring fields with boats unattended all summer. Can't keep a light on all summer without the modern technology lens people are mistakenly seeing this though.

so, as is really common on this forum and in general, people are only seeing it through their own personal boating experience. You have to step back and see it through the experience of history and of commercial vessels. Because that’s where it all came from.

And Mike, we don’t have any designated anchorages (at the federal level). The only anchorages designated are special anchorages. The rest is just open water (which anyone is free to anchor in and requires normal lights).

It does show a bit of the USA way of doing things however, because there actually are designated anchorages. They are just designated by the local town. Specifically, the guy in the harbor that keeps track of all of this stuff. The harbormaster.

One of the best places to look at this stuff is Newport Rhode Island Harbor. That’s the picture I put in a previous post here. It’s a great example of how all of this works.

if you look at the chart, you can see there are a couple of pink boxes. These are designated special anchorages. In between them there is nothing. Just normal water. That area in between the pink boxes is the designated Anchorage in Newport Harbor, designated at the town level. That’s where you stick your pleasure boat and put on the light.

those pink areas used to be filled up with commercial vessels that didn’t need to use a light because they were always there. And because you couldn’t use the light while unattended. No way to power at historically. Now, those pink boxes are filled with mooring fields and recreational boats that are also still unattended. That’s where you keep your boat for the season. In the spring it goes in and you put it on the mooring ball and then in the fall you haul it out before the freeze. So lights are not required. From history mostly, but there’s really no need for lights there at all.

attached, please see the newport, ri chart. With special anchorages number one and number two. And see the little strip in the middle that has no designation. That is the town anchorage. The one designated by the local government. That’s where you would anchor. The special anchorages numbered one and number two look like the picture of the boats I am attaching as well. That picture I attached is a picture of the special Anchorage in this chart. That is Newport Rhode Island harbor.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	93756C47-8B81-4A95-8904-B1CB8BA3EE58.jpeg
Views:	67
Size:	389.3 KB
ID:	270205   Click image for larger version

Name:	EFAFF119-F8BC-430A-A796-303EAF649F52.jpeg
Views:	66
Size:	266.1 KB
ID:	270206  

Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:18   #126
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,589
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
It's actually exactly what Benz said above.

It was for commercial vessels to drop an unmanned barge, etc.

Over time, the harbors became crowded with private boats and mooring fields. These areas retained their Special Anchorage status.

When all this happened, solar panels weren't invented yet

No continuous anchor lights. It was small batteries. They didn't last for the weeks old unattended commercial vessels were at anchor. See for the mooring fields with boats unattended all summer. Can't keep a light on all summer without the modern technology lens people are mistakenly seeing this though.

And the historical need for this vs lack of modern relevance is likely why additional new special anchorages have not been defined over time.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:23   #127
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,386
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Because it is hard to change regulations in large bureaucracies.
That's a truism everywhere . But my query is really about why this law/reg got introduced in the first place? Why were "Special Anchorages" deemed necessary in the US, but nowhere else? It's not like the US situation is/was unique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Most US boaters are not aware of them either.
That seems apparent given the confusion this seems to elicit here on CF, even from many American boaters.

ADD: A quick search finds it was introduced in April 22, 1940: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/109.10 . Could it have been something to do with WWII*? Still seems odd, since the rest of the world was already into the war.

*The war started in 1939, and the US didn't officially enter till 1941, but still...
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:27   #128
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,386
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
It's actually exactly what Benz said above.

It was for commercial vessels to drop an unmanned barge, etc.
But other countries use commercial barges. There's nothing unique about that. Maybe there was a specific political lobby effort in the US from the barge companies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
so, as is really common on this forum and in general, people are only seeing it through their own personal boating experience. You have to step back and see it through the experience of history and of commercial vessels. Because that’s where it all came from.
That's what I'm trying to do; look at the history to understand why it came about. Barge usage and lack of low-powered lighting can't be the reason, since these issues are common around the world. Yet it's only the USA that has these Special Anchorages.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:37   #129
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Jensen Beach, Fl
Boat: O'Day 34
Posts: 392
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

I always use my masthead anchor light as well as a bright LED which illuminates the entire deck. In the Bahamas I've had close encounters with several boats on a moonless night as their masthead light blended in with the starry sky.
My best story is when I was hosting a neighborhood party on my previous 50'x16' - 2 deck houseboat while viewing the New year's Eve fireworks at anchor with several hundred other boats. The Coast Guard Aux came up and asked where my anchor light was; they couldn't make it out from the 1500 plus Christmas lights strung all over both upper and lower deck rails.
My answer: "Are you Shi..ing me? Are you telling me that you seriously can't see us?" With that, they went on their way.
Quadrille in JB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:47   #130
Registered User
 
Chotu's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

For fun, the Chat AI answer:

The history of designated special anchorages for boats in the United States is closely tied to the history of boating and maritime law in the country. In the early days of the United States, there were few formal regulations regarding where boats could anchor, and sailors were free to drop anchor wherever they pleased. However, as boating became more popular and commercial shipping increased, the need for designated anchorages and regulations to govern their use grew.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the United States Coast Guard began to establish special anchorages in certain areas to provide safe and secure mooring for boats. These anchorages were typically located in harbors and along major waterways, and were designated for use by commercial vessels and other large boats.

Over time, the use of special anchorages has expanded to include recreational boaters as well. Today, there are a variety of special anchorages and mooring areas designated by the Coast Guard and other government agencies, including marine parks, wildlife refuges, and protected areas. These anchorages are typically subject to specific regulations and may be restricted to certain types of boats or uses.


The United States Coast Guard (USCG) has a long history of establishing and managing special anchorages, which are designated areas where vessels can anchor or moor safely and securely. These anchorages are typically established in response to specific needs or concerns, such as increased vessel traffic in a particular area, or to provide a safe haven for vessels in distress.

The first special anchorages were established by the USCG in the late 19th century, as the use of steamships and other powered vessels increased. These early anchorages were typically located near major ports and harbors, and were used to control vessel traffic and prevent collisions.

In the early 20th century, the USCG began establishing special anchorages in more remote areas, such as along the coast of Alaska and in the Gulf of Mexico. These anchorages were intended to provide safe havens for vessels that were in distress or needed to take on supplies.

During World War II, the USCG established a number of special anchorages along the coast of the United States to protect against enemy attacks. These anchorages were used to shelter merchant ships and other vessels that were at risk of being targeted by enemy submarines and other ships.

In the post-war years, the USCG continued to establish special anchorages in response to changing maritime needs. For example, in the 1970s and 1980s, the USCG established anchorages to provide safe mooring for large oil tankers and other vessels that were transporting hazardous materials.

Today, the USCG continues to establish and manage special anchorages in response to changing maritime conditions and needs. These anchorages are used to provide safe havens for vessels in distress, to control vessel traffic, and to protect the marine environment
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:57   #131
Registered User
 
Chotu's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
But other countries use commercial barges. There's nothing unique about that. Maybe there was a specific political lobby effort in the US from the barge companies?



That's what I'm trying to do; look at the history to understand why it came about. Barge usage and lack of low-powered lighting can't be the reason, since these issues are common around the world. Yet it's only the USA that has these Special Anchorages.
that, I can’t really answer. I don’t know why other countries didn’t do the same thing. And pardon me, my giant post was not really directed at you. Sometimes i make a mistake of quoting someone and then going on and on. Lol that wasn’t directly fired at you. I just wanted to put some information up there so everyone could see.
Chotu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 11:13   #132
Moderator
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 5,112
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Not sure it's about barges.


The barge situation in 1940 differed quite a lot from one country to the next. The USA was well along in a transition to the unpowered 35'x195' river barges. These don't have their own electrical system and are typically not lighted when not made up into a tow. Typically they're moored to a wall and unlit, which I guess is OK because they aren't anchored or moored, they're docked.


The Duluth harbor special anchorage area isn't near any navigable river system and is too shallow (5') for oceangoing vessels let alone lakers so I can't see any reason why it would have been set up for anything besides recreational vessels.


I don't know what they did in other countries. Maybe they just lit vessels even though they were essentially being stored. Maybe there's some other exemption. Maybe the anchor light rules just weren't enforced, in 1940, in, say, Mexico.
__________________
The best part of an adventure is the people you meet.
Jammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 11:31   #133
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,386
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

No problem Chotu. I'm enjoying the discussion. It's both irrelevant (because it is what it is), but also kinda interesting. I'm always curious about why things are the way they are, and why some make different choices than others.

Actually, your AI reference to WWII and the desire to remain invisible to enemy subs might be part of the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
I don't know what they did in other countries. Maybe they just lit vessels even though they were essentially being stored. Maybe there's some other exemption. Maybe the anchor light rules just weren't enforced, in 1940, in, say, Mexico.
Yeah... maybe the USA was the only one to recognize reality, and codify it into law. Maybe the rest of the world just chose to ignore the facts on the water. Like I say, it's just interesting... nothing serious.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 13:23   #134
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,892
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

I don't think it's that odd - in the Canadian Rules we have 30(h):

Quote:
Notwithstanding this Rule, in the Canadian waters of a roadstead, harbour, river, lake or inland waterway, a barge or an inconspicuous, partly submerged vessel or object, when at anchor, is not required to exhibit any light while located within a recognized mooring, storage or booming area that is not an area in or near a narrow channel or fairway or where other vessels normally navigate.
I imagine there are other jurisdictions that have similar allowances.
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 13:33   #135
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,386
Re: Who remembers all around white lights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I don't think it's that odd - in the Canadian Rules we have 30(h):

I imagine there are other jurisdictions that have similar allowances.
Thanks . It's what I asked about a while back... does any other jurisdiction have the same "Special Anchorages"? This sounds like something similar.

In fact, if you interpret this broadly, ANY reasonable anchorage would qualify. And pretty much all vessels could meet the definition of being "inconspicuous, [and] partly submerged."

So none of us really need anchor lights in Canada. Cool .

(And yes, I'm being factitious).
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
member


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How white is too white? Ryban General Sailing Forum 54 21-06-2015 15:36
Who Remembers Australia's AC Boat Sinking? Coops General Sailing Forum 16 01-11-2013 10:21
Red and Green All-Around Lights jrd22 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 123 23-08-2011 08:39

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.