Why won't a Spade Bite

[sy_gilana]

In my opinion, Problems are more often the anchoror than the anchor.

Silver medal goes to the type of bottom.

Last year, 27 boats in anchorage, squall came through, 6 boats dragged. All of them were lying to Rocnas.

I call it the anchor lullaby, there is so much hype on the internet, about one anchor which is a "Game Changer" that their owners are lulled into a false sense of security, and develop bad habits.

No matter what gear you have, you must practice good seamanship.

Like these guys.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

In my opinion, Problems are more often the anchoror than the anchor.

Silver medal goes to the type of bottom.

Last year, 27 boats in anchorage, squall came through, 6 boats dragged. All of them were lying to Rocnas.

I call it the anchor lullaby, there is so much hype on the internet, about one anchor which is a "Game Changer" that their owners are lulled into a false sense of security, and develop bad habits.

No matter what gear you have, you must practice good seamanship.

Like these guys.

Actually this could be the anchor. Panope’s tests reveal the Rocna to be mediocre on resetting, presumably due to very tight rollbar which fouls more easily than the huge one on a Mantus.
My own experience with the Rocna was dragging on a windshift and poor setting reliability. Sold it and changed to a Mantus which is much better where I cruise.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

(Stuff deleted)
I have never understood the logic of trying to "set" the anchor on a short line. (Stuff deleted) So why set on a short line???

Well, it may not be logic, but I wonder if it is that they are not confident they will set (from experience) and they want to avoid letting out the full length to avoid winding their full rode back in to start over, so they set early, which is self-defeating.

[SailingHarmonie]

My favorite: "I spend 400 nights a year on anchor and my DuperSuper anchor has NEVER EVER dragged."

Makes me laugh every time. That certainly is possible, if you spend all those nights in the same one or two places you know well. It is just impossible if you actually are out cruising and anchor in dozens of anchorages off the normal sailing routes in places you have never been.

I can certainly send you to a place where you will never get an anchor to hold because it is 2 inches of sand on top of scoured coral rock.

Or places in the Chesapeake where you can drag an anchor six ways 'til Sunday and it will not set securely. I don't know why, I can't see the bottom there You wouldn't know unless you tried to anchor there.

In both of those cases I guess I can claim we did not "drag" because we never had a set we were happy with in the first place, but that is just silly semantics. In those places our anchor dragged.

Or how about the time we DID drag at 2AM when the wind picked up. WTF? This was a good deep sand bottom we had confidence in? We pulled up our anchor and found--an old outboard stuck on the point. I don't care WHAT kind of anchor or technique you have you can not make that not happen.

Just like running aground, any sailor who claims they never drag either has a highly selective memory, is lying, or never goes anywhere.

I can honestly say, "We have never dragged... except..."

[Kettlewell]

Actually this could be the anchor.

Seems unlikely when the OP was anchoring right next to them using the same anchor, though some are reporting that Spades can get bent or lose their lead, etc. Still, I think the evidence points generally to technique. I would back that up by observing the fleet in almost every anchorage--they are using all sorts of anchors with all sorts of results. There is a bit of luck involved too. I once had to sail into Annapolis in the wee hours with my engine out. After tacking slowly into a spot outside of the moorings and most anchored boats we dropped the hook in what we thought was 20 feet of water based on the depth sounder, but the chain just kept going down until the anchor hit bottom at around 50 feet. We happened to have dropped our anchor into some sort of hole. It proceeded to blow like stink for several days and we didn't move an inch with our anchor in that hole, though it was the devil to get back up.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

You shouldn't "set" the anchor, but it helps to snub it periodically as you let out chain to first orient the anchor properly to the direction the chain will be pulling, and to get the sharp point to begin to penetrate the bottom. I Pay out chain until the anchor hits the bottom and then gradually pay out chain as the wind takes us away, periodically snubbing the chain as we drift back to the proper scope. We then put a snubber on it and back down with the engine to make sure it is dug in. Numerous times I have observed people drop quality anchors only to sail away fast downwind as they dump all the scope and proceed to rapidly back down hard, which is just about guaranteed to make the anchor skid across the bottom some distance before orienting itself and digging in. Along the way the anchor may pick up enough mud and weed to foul itself.

Of course if you back down hard before the anchor has a chance to settle you might just drag it along, but that is a total strawman, because that is nothing like what I wrote. Unless it is glass calm, with no current, we never actually power away from the anchor, but let the wind and/or current do that for us. We are not in a rush. We drift away, let some chain out, drift away some more. I know in most conditions we end up with our full scope of chain snaking across the bottom when we come to where we are ready to tie off. We'll usually let it "soak" for a while before backing down on it.

What I do not understand, but will be happy to have explained, is why it matters where the anchor is pointed BEFORE I start to set it. Seems to me it will turn and start digging BETTER with the more horizontal pull I will have at full scope. I would also argue that if you are just "snubbing" in mild conditions you are actually doing squat because it takes much more pull to straighten out the chain and move the anchor than most people realize.

(Notice, I did not quote exact scopes, as several have pointed out, those are quite depth specific, but the argument is the same either way...)

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Seems unlikely when the OP was anchoring right next to them using the same anchor, though some are reporting that Spades can get bent or lose their lead, etc. Still, I think the evidence points generally to technique. I would back that up by observing the fleet in almost every anchorage--they are using all sorts of anchors with all sorts of results. There is a bit of luck involved too. I once had to sail into Annapolis in the wee hours with my engine out. After tacking slowly into a spot outside of the moorings and most anchored boats we dropped the hook in what we thought was 20 feet of water based on the depth sounder, but the chain just kept going down until the anchor hit bottom at around 50 feet. We happened to have dropped our anchor into some sort of hole. It proceeded to blow like stink for several days and we didn't move an inch with our anchor in that hole, though it was the devil to get back up.

I’m trying to understand what you are saying here?

I agree our anchoring technique is based on our Mantus but I believe ( could br wrong I suppose) that our technique should work equally well ln a Spade

We generally drop the hook while having the engine in reverse idle (to ensure we don’t get a pile of chain on top of tve hook). Let out say 5:1 then let everything rest for a minute or two, attach a chain hook, back down to 2200 rpm then set the snubber and forget about it

Many may critize this technique but it has worked well for ud the past 7-8 years all around the globe

I still don’t understand why this Spade only bites 50% of the time

[chris mac]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I’m trying to understand what you are saying here?



I agree our anchoring technique is based on our Mantus but I believe ( could br wrong I suppose) that our technique should work equally well ln a Spade



We generally drop the hook while having the engine in reverse idle (to ensure we don’t get a pile of chain on top of tve hook). Let out say 5:1 then let everything rest for a minute or two, attach a chain hook, back down to 2200 rpm then set the snubber and forget about it



Many may critize this technique but it has worked well for ud the past 7-8 years all around the globe



I still don’t understand why this Spade only bites 50% of the time

I just wanted to say we use pretty much the same method to anchor. Including using a spade anchor. Ours hooks 99 % of the time. The only times it hasn't has been in super soupy mud (mile hammock in icw) or thin sand over rock. Oh, and one time when the tip stuck in a rotten log on the bottom.
After backing down to establish it isn't one of those bottoms, we have never drug.
I would guess there is an issue with that particular spade anchor. Not enough lead causing it to be upside down, or for some reason not digging when pulled. I would love to see it live, while dropping. Any chance someone can snorkel or dive in the area while dropping?

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I’m trying to understand what you are saying here?

I agree our anchoring technique is based on our Mantus but I believe ( could br wrong I suppose) that our technique should work equally well ln a Spade

We generally drop the hook while having the engine in reverse idle (to ensure we don’t get a pile of chain on top of tve hook). Let out say 5:1 then let everything rest for a minute or two, attach a chain hook, back down to 2200 rpm then set the snubber and forget about it

Many may critize this technique but it has worked well for ud the past 7-8 years all around the globe

I still don’t understand why this Spade only bites 50% of the time

Similar here though without the engine, just let the boat drift back & let chain out as it goes. Then decent scope put chain in a grab , let boat line up a bit better , into reverse & up to highish revs. Though no real attempt to ensure hook is lined up, if a squall comes through with big windshift or someone picks up my chain & runs away when I'm not onboard it's nice to know the spade can look after itself without any precise careful technique.
If leaving the boat or some wind is forecast, after hook is dug in the boat will spring forward maybe a boat length so then I'll give a good bit of reverse to get 2/3Kts way on backwards and be reassured when the bow dips down with a bang
Only time it hasn't set straight away I can remember was deliberately backing too fast on a rocky bottom to see what would happen.
Opencpn is useful to kepp an eye on things with a waypoint/range ring


Yet to meet any cruisers with these persistent problems described, must be something going on for such uncommon behaviour

[Kettlewell]

I’m trying to understand what you are saying here?

I deleted my last post as it was in error. I was misremembering the first post. Sorry! I have no experience with a Spade other than observing other people. Some seem to have good luck with them, others not. To me that points to technique. In the past I have observed the same thing with other anchors. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Bruce. I have seen them fail a lot, but just a few weeks ago someone near me hung on a rather small Bruce when others were dragging with more modern anchors.

Here are the instructions on anchoring from the Spade website:

When your vessel has lost all way and is at a complete halt, lower the anchor. If you have any way on at all, your chain will drag over the anchors for boats, once the boat drops back and may foul the anchor.

When you let go, don't let the chain and warp go screaming out to pile on itself. Instead, lower the anchor quickly, paying out the warp or chain hand over hand or with the windlass, until you feel it rest on the seabed. Signal to the helmsperson to put the engine in very slow reverse, so the vessel just begins to make slight stern-way about the time the anchor touches the bottom. If it is windy, leave the engine in neutral and let the boat's windage and motion provide the backing propulsion. As the boat continues to back slowly, also feed out the line (be it warp or all chain) slowly, maintaining a slight tension on it, so that it is laying out straight on the seabed, instead of in a pile.

With the boat still backing slowly and with about half of the scope out, hold the line firmly until you feel the slack is taken up and the anchor is tugging. Feed more line out, but keep tension on so the anchors for boats is being set straight. This is the correct way of how to anchor a boat.

Pass the line around the bollard to make it easier to hold. Snub up firmly, just long enough to feel it tugging for a second, then ease off. Repeat this snub and feed pattern several times. On a larger vessel, with an all chain line and heavy ground tackle, you would be using the windlass gypsy for this task, alternatively braking and releasing the drum.

This gentle snubbing/feeding action while backing down the boat is the surest way of how to anchor a boat. Yet it is a technique very few skippers seem to employ. It gives an opportunity to right itself, penetrate the bottom surface and gradually dig in.

If the anchors for boats has taken hold, the boat will come to an abrupt halt, firmly setting the anchor. However as we all know, there are times when you do worry whether it is holding. It can roll out and dislodge in vicious wind gusts and squalls or very strong wind and when your boat is swinging wildly. These conditions are often unexpected and are cause for concern.

[Don C L]

In my area, if I just let the anchor sit on the bottom, at whatever scope, and I don't back down on it hard, I run the risk of having it fouled on a lump of kelp, and I won't know about it until it starts dragging late at night. And then I'll curse the anchor when really it was my own fault for not setting the anchor and checking that it is holding.

[sailingharry]

I know it's me. But whenever this topic shows on my screen I have two thoughts.
The first is it's an incomplete sentence.
The second is why is someone asking a woodworking question.
The I see the e at the end. [emoji849]

[SaltyMetals]

I have a 25kg Spade for my 13m(43ft) sailing boat. I started with a ,20kg Bruce, used a grinder to sharpen the point but had too much trouble in bays w weed so changed to 20kg Spade. That was good but would still drag sometimes (Med) so changed to 25kg Spade. Perfect solution.

I think the galvanising on the Spade is done with a bath which uses a v small % nickel addition. The effect of this is to slow the growth of the Zn intermetallic layers. In effect it means the galvaniser makes a nice looking galv product but the Zn coating is not as thick as it should be.

Add to that the numerous different metals in the Spade (steel, Zn, Pb, SS bolt) and you have a minestrone of galvanic activity on an anchor which appears to not have a thick enough Zn galv coating to start with

I like the Spade design but their product could be improved. My solution? numerous extra coats of Zn spray, particularly on the Pb and around the joint where the shank goes into the anchor. (Some posts elsewhere have suggested epoxy over the Pb). Then Durolac on the SS bolt.

We always think of the ideal as 5:1 but this is an approximation since it depends on the depth. BarcoMeCasa made an interesting comment saying he lays out 20m+ 2xdepth. I had an interesting exchange several months ago with a German mathematician who had worked out a fancy formula but which could be approximately matched with 16m + 2xdepth. (This allows for about 1.5m from the water level up to the anchor shoe.) "ChainSim" App follows much the same idea.

In terms of anchoring technique I usually place my boat about half a length forward of where I would like the anchor to grip. Then drop the anchor while gently reversing. This will orientate the anchor so the point hits th seabed in the direction in which you wish it to dig in. Then I run my chain out to 16m +2xdepth but do not attempt to dig in the anchor until after about 5-10 mins at which point I reverse and hold it at 1500-2,000 rpm for 30 seconds to 1 minute. This technique seems to work in weedy bays where I had trouble before w my earlier anchors. (Sure it will always be difficult w a small covering of sand over rock so best to go elsewhere).
Andrew

[malbert73]

Just one more vote for drop anchor, let full scope out reverse until chain is straight and boat stops hard, add some RPMs and wait, then be done with it. I don’t want to wait for an hour of “soaking” to know it hasn’t set. I just back down hard, and expect the boat to stop pretty sharply when the anchor bites. If it drags on initial set (twice in 5 years- see picture for one of them) then I pick it up and redo. The other 500+ times it’s set instantly.
Mantus 55 lb.

[Captain Bill]

A few posts ago I posted about deep water anchoring without mentioning that about 7 years ago I moved my delta to the backup anchor position and bought a spade and never looked back. My experience with the delta was that given enough stress the delta would "plow" even in good bottom. With the spade I have on a couple of occasions had an issue getting it set, once set I have never had a serious dragging issue. The only time It moved at all was during a tropical storm in NC, when over the course of 12 hours and in a bottom of soft mud it moved about 100ft and then after the eye passed moved back almost as far in the opposite direction. I love my spade. While I never had either anchor break out and put me in a high speed drag the Delta would creep backwards under a lot of stress. With the exception of that time in the tropical storm in soft mud the spade has never moved once set. The only time I had trouble setting the spade it was fouled by something.