Wing and wing

[Sandero]

I often set a pair of guys to hold the pole at the precise angle I want to present the most sail to the wind. In the vid they don't do that. You also need to adjust how far you extend or retract the pole depending in the angle of the sail to hold it out properly No?

[GordMay]

I didn’t watch them, so can’t comment on these techniques:

Setting up a preventer to control the boom on a sailboat

YouTube - Setting up a preventer to control the boom on a sailboat

Rigging a Shockle as a boom preventer on your sailboat
SHOCKLES® - Simpy Brilliant products for Boats, Sailboats, Boating, Sailing, Home and Outdoors

[Sandero]

Tips for Rigging and Using a Whisker Pole; Brought to you by: [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Jeffrey/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.jpg[/IMG]

Whisker poles do need a topping lift to support their weight, especially in light air. Gravity will pull them down and aft on the jib sheet if not supported. The topping lift keeps the pole level and allows for better sail shape. If you do not have a specific pole topping lift available, use a staysail halyard or second jib halyard. Spinnaker halyards can be used briefly, but as they exit above the headstay and outside the fore-triangle, they may chafe on the headstay if used for long periods of time.

Usually, you do not need a specific fore-guy or after-guy. By moving your jib leads as far forward as possible (even athwart ships of the mast) this will give the jib sheet a sharp angle up to the pole and help keep it from "skying" or wanting to rise or lift in the puffs. By taking the "lazy" sheet and turning it on a forward deck cleat-don’t cleat it off, just use the cleat as a turning block-you can then take up load from the cockpit. This will help keep the pole down and forward without the need of rigging another line.

If the pole is to be flown for long periods, then a pole after-guy and fore-guy should be rigged separate from the sheet. There are very good reasons to do this. First, if the pole is being used in trade-wind conditions, squalls are likely, usually at night! Second, if the pole is set with the sheet allowed to run freely through the outboard end, the after-guy is holding the pole back, the fore-guy is holding the pole down and forward and the topping lift is holding the pole up, you can furl up the jib at will without ever touching the pole or having to go forward. The pole is secured so you can concentrate on the main, the mizzen or any other gear flying about until the squall passes. Then simply unfurl the jib and you never have to touch the pole. This system worked well on a 2300-mile passage to Hawaii.

Note: The larger Line Control whisker poles come with a center-pole wire "strap" that can be used to rig a bridle for the topping lift. This bridle can be made of a small diameter scrap piece of line. The bridle is attached to the outboard end and the center pole wire strap. By rigging this bridle, the pole is supported in the middle as well as the outboard end. This is a better topping lift support method in heavy air and sea conditions. The reason Forespar® does not supply this line is simple. These are telescoping poles and we would have to make the bridle fit the longest telescoped length. When the pole is stored, this extra line would foul. Rig this bridle to length as needed.

Whisker poles should be flown with the jaws facing down. When taking down a whisker pole, the jib sheet usually wants to drop down-and-out of the end fitting. Spinnaker poles are flown jaws facing up, as the spinnaker sheets usually want to lift up-and-out of the end fitting. The pole won’t know the difference but you may find it easier to set and take down with the ends in the proper orientation.

[Sandero]

I think rolled up would not cause chafe as there is no movement in the tight roll.

If you had two identical sails could they be used on the same tack, one set of sheets and then separated with separate sheets for wing and wing? Can you use one halyard doe both? This may not make sense inshore, but what about for long offshore work? What is the downside to this approach?

[Hud3]

defjef,

I'm not sure that rolling up two sails together would work. Wouldn't the two halyards interfere with each other?

[ssullivan]

Most of the time, when running wing and wing (sometimes called wing on wing as well), I do like Dave's post.

I use no preventer and pay a lot of attention to the main. I try to make sure my run isn't a true run, but is a few degrees off a run, keeping the main safely filled and held off to one side.

If I'm on a true run, I let the main way WAY out and have the boom as close to a 90 degree angle from the centerline as possible.

No matter if it's a true run or slightly off, I then adjust the genoa to work with the way the main is set up, by creating a "funnel" for the wind to follow. Some wind goes from the stern, across the main backwards, across the mast and then spills over to the slot between the genoa and the main/mast.

Yet more wind comes from approximately where the genoa sheet meets the genoa, runs backward up the genoa, and slips down the "funnel" toward the forestay.

Now... after you have set the sails, you want to keep a balance... and that's the more difficult part.

If you watch the rig, imagining it's a funnel and that you want to keep the wind going nicely down the funnel, you will have some success. The trick is really to use the main to guide the wind down the funnel. Any time the main is looking suspiciously like it is starting to lose pressure on it, *immediately* turn the boat such that the main gets more wind and the genoa loses some. If you see the genoa start to collapse, turn *immediately* in the opposite direction to fill the genoa.

Just keep doing this all day long (it's tiring!) and you'll be making your way downwind.

The real key is to keep that pressure on the main. Favor the main (if you do like me - no preventer) so that you never come close to an accidental jybe.

Or... if you want it easy... just use a preventer and a whisker pole and forget about really having to watch things closely.

I would actually suggest doing this without a preventer or a whisker pole to get good at it... then go back and re-evaluate things and decide if you want to have the convenience of a preventer and/or whisker pole.

PS: If the boat is rolling side to side a lot, sometimes you won't be able to do this at all without a whisker pole because the genoa will collapse with every roll. Fortunately, when running downwind, it's often the case that you are in following seas and the boat doesn't roll much.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

... If the boat is rolling side to side a lot, sometimes you won't be able to do this at all without a whisker pole because the genoa will collapse with every roll. Fortunately, when running downwind, it's often the case that you are in following seas and the boat doesn't roll much.

Be careful of the dreaded “death roll”, when using a pole. You won’t be happy, should you submerge the pole.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Be careful of the dreaded “death roll”, when using a pole. You won’t be happy, should you submerge the pole.

Yes, should have added that to the post.

Personally, I don't use preventers or whisker poles and would rather pay careful attention... which is why I suggested the OP learn without the aid of either.

[Hud3]

Careful attention is indeed important, but it's not unheard of to have your thoughts wander a bit after hours at the wheel. I've seen a traveler car literally explode in an uncontrolled gybe. Not something you'd like to have happen offshore. I almost always use a preventer on the boom when on a run or deep broad reach. The preventer line is lead back to the cockpit for control, and is small enough (I believe) to part before the boom would collapse if it dug in during a broach.

[Dave the Canuck]

[quote=defjef;187228]Tips for Rigging and Using a Whisker Pole; Brought to you by: [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Jeffrey/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.jpg[/IMG]



Usually, you do not need a specific fore-guy or after-guy. By moving your jib leads as far forward as possible (even athwart ships of the mast) this will give the jib sheet a sharp angle up to the pole and help keep it from "skying" or wanting to rise or lift in the puffs. By taking the "lazy" sheet and turning it on a forward deck cleat-don’t cleat it off, just use the cleat as a turning block-you can then take up load from the cockpit. This will help keep the pole down and forward without the need of rigging another line.

Nice tips!! I don't like extra lines, if I can avoid them.

Thanks!

[Sandero]

Poles and booms out in large seas are potential disasters. But this usually means that the winds are strong and have been blowing for a long time and fetch which would be an offshore situation.

In coastal situations conditions rarely get that nasty so quickly that you will be experiencing severe rolling and the possibility of dipping the boom or more unlikely the whisker pole.

Offshore it is prudent to carry LESS as opposed to more canvas. One usually has room to find the most comfortable point of sail which would be the way to go until conditions moderate. Of course one needs to be observant of coming weather systems, but that is another discussion.

Obviously running before a stiff breeze with an RF genny only is a managable situation and with a pole you can optimize your "sail" presentation to the wind without losing the ability to reef (or go forward) which is why I set up a guyed pole which can be left set when the genny is rolled in or reefed.

In milder conditions a poled out genny and a full hoist main with a preventer works pretty well if you can keep the boat tracking down wind without "s"ing about as many autopilots do with quartering seas. (mine does) I suppose that the feedback data and is not fast enough on the autopilot. I know I can track the boat on this point of sail better than the autopilot. However unless the "s"ing is "severe" not having to steer for hours on end is an acceptable compromise. But consider that you may sail 30-50% longer than a straight track and that effectively reduces your speed made good, time of arrival and so forth. All of these factors are to be considered when sailing downwind in a stiff breeze.

Without a pole the genny tends to curl and can even back wind and collapse. The poled out genny is way more efficient as a downwind sail than the same sail on without a pole. Deploying the pole only takes a few minutes too.

You can also use a second sheet so that you can go from poled out to non poled sheeting if the wind moves forward enough to reach. You can use the lazy sheet for this or just run an extra sheet, although you should be able to release the sheet from the pole since the jaw faces down and if you have a line run to the mast to open the jaw.

[Sandero]

Good idea Dave, I need to give that a try.

[s/v Moondancer]

Unless you are racing never carry more sail downwind than you can easily carry upwind...Just ask yourself.."How would I get back quickly to a man-over-board?" If broaching or reefing first are in the mix you are over-canvassed.

[svHyLyte]

Michael--

The run into the jetty at Alamitos Bay from the east end of the breakwater can be a real pip because of the rollers curving around the end of the breakwater and heading toward the beach. As the sea-bed shoals from the breakwater in very quickly, the rollers build up and its here that most boats seem to have problems-wing'n wing or otherwise.

Outside the breakwater the swell can be relatively modest even with a good wind blowing (the afternoon sea-breeze really builds up when its unusally warm in the winter months). Outside, you can usually carry your sails wing'n wing without preventers. As soon as you pass the east end of the breakwater, however, the sea builds quickly. As a wave approaches your stern, it lifts and accelerates you down the face--even a Willard. That cuts down your apparent wind-reducing the pressure on the sails-at the same point as the yacht begins to roll and shear off in one direction or another--depending on which quarter the roller favors. With this the sails "flop" around. You correct for the shearing-off just about at the point at which the roller's passed ahead of you, at which point the yacht's sailing "up-hill" and slowing, so the apparent wind strengthens and the sails bang full again. If you're on a port gybe and correcting to port at that point, the yacht rolls to starboard and vears to port, momentarily blanketing the headsail--you correct to starboard and--bang, the heasail's exposed and snaps forward--which is all the worse with a staysail boom adding to the cacaphony. (The foregoing is exacerbated by the main that pumps the rolling action of the yacht.) At that point, the next roller arrives and the process begins anew.

The trick at Alamitos is to rig light preventers forward to steady the booms and to not over react to the yacht's roll--but to drive into it momentarily and then center the helm so you don't slow too much on the backside of the rollers. Once you breast the jetty-they die down very quickly.

I loved the harbor at Alamitos bay but hated that entrance. We were always cold and tired by the time we got there--usually on the run back from Two Harbors--and just wanted to be done with it. We found it best to head into the jetty from about 1/4 mile east of the end of the breawater so you don't get so much of the curve in the rollers. If there's really a big sea, its easier to go somewhat farther east and come in on a port reach under the main only.

FWIW...

s/v HyLyte

[SV Someday Came]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

....At that point, the next roller arrives and the process begins anew.
s/v HyLyte

That makes perfect sense. When w got back, I looked at the track down on the GPS. (I cannot remember the track time interval I had set, but it was the smallest time increment possible) and right about where you said this process would be unfolding were a series of tracks that looked like fish hooks -- there was a pattern to the rounding up just like you said. I distinctly remember getting this "uplifting" feeling, and knowing somehow the whole process was about to happen again.

You, I wish I could just sail with some of you folks on this board. Just once or twice. Learn alot I would!


Thanks


Michael