Alcohol or Propane?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Sohum

Propane is a high octane very efficient fuel. Like any gas, propane combustion emits carbon dioxide(at a lower level), will produce CO, carbon monoxide w/incomplete combustion. Doesn’t produce sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides or methane. When it comes to carbon emissions, propane ranks as one of the cleanest. Combustion efficiency can be seen at the flame. All blue,(very little, tiny yellow at flame tips, ok) is complete combustion. Blue orange, and yellow flame is incomplete combustion, the more yellow/orange the flame shows, signifies greater incomplete combustion. This needs to be addressed. Spillovers from cooking should be clean. Keep burner holes and igniter clean of grease and debris.
In the US. propane manufacturers add a chemical to give the “rotten egg” smell as warning of gas leak. Add propane sniffers. Soap and water sprayed at connections and crimps is a easy leak test. I always do this when switching tanks. Very important tanks aren’t overfilled, I store full tanks on a mount at the stern, pressure release valves facing overboard.
1 lb propane = 91500 btu. Hope some find this useful info.

Ethyl mercaptan is the odorant. The problem is you rapidly become used to the smell and stop noticing it.



Propane lower heating value is 19,900 BTU/pound.
Diesel is about 18,300
Ethanol is about 11,300

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Spot

Hi Sean,
Could you please recommend a design or designs for a more efficient alcohol can stove? Are there adjustments to cookware or technique in using an Origo to increase its efficiency?
Thanks!

Recognize that he exaggerates a good bit. You can Google homemade stoves. There are some cute designs. But burning ethanol is ... easy ... and efficiency differences are mythical. If the fuel did not burn it would smoke or smell of alcohol. There have been independent studies done of Origo and other non-pressurized stoves, and the combustion efficiency is better than 99%.



https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...73082618302722


Yes, Origo stoves can become slugish over time if not maintained. Remember that most of these stoves are over 20 years old, some of them twice that. The most common causes of slow heating are high water alcohol and wick contamination. Water gradually reduces output, because the water accumulates in the reservoir (true of ANY non-pressurized stove). Just dry it out. Wick contamination is from either dirty fuel or food spills. Dry and burn the wick surface dry. You can also replace the canister, although that is VERY seldom needed.

Some waste a lot of fuel because they lost the cap and do not close the stove when not in use. The alcohol evaporates. Cut a rubber disk to make a cap. Easy.

Yes, you can make your own alcohol burner. Search "alcohol stove" on Ebay and you will find many for $6. Generally, they can't be regulated and don't have any useful structure, which is most of what you pay for with a stove. I recall doing that when I was 12 in 1973. I was building my own chemistry stuff (distillation--I was curious) and I needed a bigger burner than the one I had. Not to different from the new DIY inventions, and it was easy when I was 12.

[Simon.Sails]

I am by no means an expert, but have just ripped out a propane stove out of my trimaran today. And it's incredible how much all that stuff I could throw away weighed. Such a complicated system, I'm glad I got rid of it.

I now cook and make coffee several times a day with my 1500w electric stove and it couldn't be simpler. I'm not suggesting it would work for everyone, but I effectively use about 750Wh-1kWh per day on cooking (3x/day) and coffee (4-5x/day), which I easily make with solar.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Recognize that he exaggerates a good bit. You can Google homemade stoves. There are some cute designs. But burning ethanol is ... easy ... and efficiency differences are mythical. If the fuel did not burn it would smoke or smell of alcohol. There have been independent studies done of Origo and other non-pressurized stoves, and the combustion efficiency is better than 99%.

The origo is so inefficient because it's a huge metal box. A lot of the energy in the fuel ends up heating the huge stove which acts as a heatsink radiating the heat away and not into the food. Has nothing to do with combustion efficiency.

The other problem with the origo is the fuel evaporates out when you arent using it.

[thinwater]

I use fuel for heat (vented heaters) on my current and last boat, since I sail all year. Electric is not viable for this. But I can see it for warm weather boats, particularly multihulls.



Many small boats have neither the deck space for much solar nor weight capacity for a substantial electric system; with LEDs, they barely need one battery. There are not many marine product that work for them.


My first boat I used a propane camp stove in the cockpit. Worked fine for summer cruising up to a week or a few. I used 1-pound bottles. I kept the bottles on deck, and over 30 years (barbecues) I've had several bottles leak. Could have been very bad if they had been below.



Different problems call for different solutions.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

The origo is so inefficient because it's a huge metal box. A lot of the energy in the fuel ends up heating the huge stove which acts as a heatsink radiating the heat away and not into the food. Has nothing to do with combustion efficiency. If the heat did not strike the box it would radiate into the cabin, also not warming food. At least the box reflects some of it back. I don't understand your point. In fact, the box does not become very warm, not enough to be uncomfortable to the touch other than burner parts (unless there is something very wrong with your stove, perhaps).

The other problem with the origo is the fuel evaporates out when you arent using it. Seal the stove between uses with the included cap. This is in the instructions. So sealed, it will lose less than a gram per month (measured, just for fun). Most likely the cap was lost from the stove you used. They often are, and since people don't read the instructions, they don't realize something is missing and that they are operating the stove improperly.

Yes, can see what you think is true... but a resounding no. See above.

[Don C L]

I have no idea how efficient my Origo is, but it serves me well. If I am cooking something for more than a few minutes, the box will become hot but it is not a problem. I have high temp silicone sheets I put over the tank when I am done cooking to quell evaporation. Turning the tanks upside down on deck in the sun seems to help them dry out residual water pretty well when needed. In the time it takes the kettle to boil I have taken care of getting all the other stuff ready for breakfast, the timing is perfect.

[gonesail]

If you enjoy cooking .. go with propane. I like the xintex gas detection system.

[Sohum]

@seandepagnier

All indoor combustion, wether stove, water heater, fireplace, needs to be vented. The use of CO2, fire and sniffers alarms says “danger, use with care, read instructions, take precautions”.
Let it be known , all articles in reference here, Im objective to various segments. Lets just say gas is gas.(f it) your “fact checks” control is natural gas. This is about propane.

From the epa. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...combustion.pdf

LPG is considered a "clean" fuel because it does not produce visible emissions. However,
gaseous pollutants such as nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO), and organic compounds are produced as are small amounts of sulfur dioxide (SO2) and particulate matter (PM). The most significant factors affecting NOx, CO, and organic emissions are burner design, burner adjustment, boiler operating parameters, and flue gas venting. Improper design, blocking and clogging of the flue vent, and insufficient combustion air result in improper combustion and the emission of aldehydes, CO, hydrocarbons, and other organics. NOx emissions are a function of a number of variables, including temperature, excess air, fuel and air mixing, and residence time in the combustion zone. The amount of SO2 emitted is directly proportional to the amount of sulfur in the fuel. PM emissions are very low and result from soot, aerosols formed by condensable emitted species, or boiler scale dislodged during combustion. Emission factors for LPG combustion are presented in Table 1.5-1.
Formation of N2O during the combustion process is governed by a complex series of reactions and its formation is dependent upon many factors. Formation of N2O is minimized when combustion temperatures are kept high (above 1475oF) and excess air is kept to a minimum (less than 1 percent).

Ok my “no” on these emissions is incorrect. It is stressed “if the flames not blue, turn it off, fix the problem, keep burners and cooktop clean”. (cookware too)

Re: article from clreartecha.
The ideas to produce millions of electric ranges? Toss out or recycle gas appliances that have serviceable life? Process to raw materials then manufacture more stuff? That’s a small footprint?
No mention it’s a group effort, everyone needs to sacrifice something to make this work. Nothing about consume less…
I gotta say, I’m a bit disappointed in how the author covers “fracking emissions from natural gas” would it not be beneficial and appropriate to mention the enormous waste and pollution of water that’s entailed as well. This is an “education” piece. He’s got a platform, not to deter from his article, but it’s a sentence. Some readers may not know, and those few words, could be the extra “umph”, that’s gives someone an “Aah hah” moment of conscious. Side note, He drives a electric car, great.. do away with asphalt?

Apart from 100% solar, where does this electricity come from? Natural gas, coal, hydro(not for long) produce electricity that get transmitted thru lines miles and miles, all connected, little resistance here, and here, down the line here,,..adds to loss. We all know solar panel production isn’t extremely intensive and toxic. Is that where resources should be devoted to, electric appliances? I guess the scrape metal from the gas appliances can be used to make induction cookware, which is boxed and wrapped for millions of consumers. Wow the cycle, what’s gonna happen with the old cookware? Recycled, turned into “green” products, consumed with the best of intentions of “earth first”. “Makes people believe they’re doing their part.

Energy transmission loss
Lost In Transmission: How Much Electricity Disappears Between A Power Plant And Your Plug? | Inside Energy

https://www.discovermagazine.com/env...f-clean-energy

Propane is a byproduct of nat gas and oil refining. Liquid components are recovered as natural gas is processed, collected as propane.

Your choose to dissect the post.,and leave in misleading keywords
“methane. When it comes to carbon emissions, propane ranks as one of the cleanest.” One could very well see this as methane’s cleanest.

Your quote
“This is completely incorrect. Most of the emissions are produced before you have the propane. open gas stoves are terribly inefficient. You are getting 1-3% of the energy from the original crude oil if you cook on propane. “

How this different from mining, and packaging alternatives, building the latest tech. If the percentage is 3%, iBetter to flare it off?
According to you, using propane equates to against indigenous rights? Can we respect waste not want not? Buying lumber guilty, use plastic, guilty, create trash, guilty, exhaust co with every breath, guilty.. Damed if I do or don’t. Are humans not destroying the planet?. I’m not pro fracking, the refining of crude oil should provide humans with enough to live within means. Fracking happens when there’s excess money to spend.

“Other options include electric cooking which is considered the best option by health experts since there are no emissions to breath. It is also more convenient and runs from the solar panels. Unlike fuel based cooking, it can be insulated much better as there are no flames. Typical gas stove is 10% efficiency meaning you could do the same cooking with 10% of the energy, but people don't and end up heating their boat with the 90%.”

https://home.howstuffworks.com/gas-v...ric-stoves.htm

Re; the Atlantic,
Once again it’s fossil fuel yes, this articles referencing natural gas. Slightly different from Propane.

Heather Price knows her way around gases. An atmospheric chemist at North Seattle College, she studies outdoor air pollution, the flow and change of chemicals in Earth’s atmosphere. But she wasn’t worried about the gas stove in her own home before her son developed asthma and, at two and a half years old, had to use his inhaler multiple times a day. She started to wonder: Was gas making her family sick?
Price’s house ran on natural gas—“gas stove, gas furnace, gas hot-water heater,” she says. In American homes, this setup is quite common, but gas appliances—and gas stoves in particular—have costs. Cooking on a gas stove unleashes some of the same fumes found in car exhaust. If those fumes are not vented outside the house, they linger and sneak into lungs.
Price had always thought of residential pollution as coming from nearby trucks or highways, but when she followed up on her hunch, she found a trove of articles about the link between gas and pediatric asthma. Price and her husband decided to move out, to a new, all-electric home in the same zip code. Her family breathed the same neighborhood air; the only thing that changed was their house. Her son’s asthma improved almost overnight.

***This is a scare piece. Really it’s the same as parking a truck in your kitchen? What I find shocking and needs addressing, Price is a atmospheric chemist at North Seattle College, she studies outdoor air pollution. A teacher, churning out the next crop of “experts.”. No idea about venting. She’s poising her son. Yet she’s qualified to What if she didn’t move out and properly vented, maybe improved as well. Maybe? She was clueless. Don’t vent a home with electric appliances? Just open some windows?

Onward
The survey can be skewed. Baltimore? Gas stoves should never be used for heat. Ever. 91% surveyed were African Americans income <$ 25000. This is a social economic and ethics wrong.

Cites venting as a issue and cost prohibitive. Inadequate venting of gas kitchen appliances who’s sets the regulations? Oh “Experts”. How dare someone question “experts “. Why aren’t these experts implementing passive solar mandates on all new construction?

One cubic foot of propane = 2,516 Btus compared to one cubic foot of natural gas = 1030 btus Propane contains more than twice the energy.
Propane octane 110-112

https://molekule.science/kitchen-air-hazardous/

Electric stoves may not produce as much air pollution as their gas-powered counterparts, but they can still emit high levels of particulate matter. Interestingly, the 2001 ARB report noted that frying tortillas and stir-frying on an electric stove actually produced significantly higher concentrations of particulate matter than they did when performed on a gas stove. The report’s authors note that this discrepancy may be due to either the decreased temperature control of the electric stove or spilled food on the electric burners.

Also nice virtue signaling. “If you use propane you support fracking.”
So now I’m gonna share little bit of me and sailing. 2010, I got this vision to change things up, in ohh 2020 or so. It was a new journey and could sailing be involved? I didn’t know how to sail. Grew up boating on numerous lakes in No. California, namely Humboldt Co.(where the hippies from SF relocated in 1970s). Years pass by, I’m too busy and procrastinating to call the local sailing club in Berkeley and take up sailing. 2016, I learn to sail.. end of 2018 close on a cat.
Renovating my home, renter moving in. Sell lots of “stuff”, drive cross country(our dog), move onboard. 2019 ,learning the cats systems, maintenance and retro. 2020 lockdown.2021, still laying low.

With that being said, quick question,, you familiar with La Vagabond?
I take it his “green” trimaran is a better way to go. More eco?
I don’t think sailing or boating is “green”. I think upgrading when there’s a perfectly good Outreamer is a waste and its that type thinking and logic that is most detrimental to our planet. Consume more, to produce less. Never ending quest for “better”.

..anyways onboard is me, my son, 27, our dog,4. A huge plus to this lifestyle change is my moms retirement. Meeting up with family along our routes.. lately, I’ve contemplated ending this voyage early. I can be amongst the redwoods, and transform my 1.5 acres into a biodynamic farm..direct cause from extended lockdowns along with me being irked-about a “green washed “society. Heck, I shake my head in disagreement when I use 25-30ft of plastic, vacuum sealinng “provisions”. For those curious about our decision? We believe (emotions aside) it’d be a tremendous waste of energy, time, resources, and money to end this now. It would be careless of us not to appreciate “this moment”. We’re staying on,, eyes on the med. We appreciate life’s blessing, and appreciate our used, worn, 2010 cat.

Full disclosure, our main frying pan is cast iron. Probably gain 3 hours tank time switching to nonstick w/Teflon.. Wasting energy, but are there Ibrownie points for baking potatoes in a airtight wood stove when home? Nothing like the heat from madrrone intense long lasting heat, maybe 1% ash.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

As for propane, it is out of the question. It comes from fracking which is bad. You can't use propane and not be in favor of fracking and stepping on indigenous rights, people who have been kicked around for centuries. Most of the energy is already consumed and emitted before you even get the propane as it takes more energy to extract refine compress and transport it than is in the actual fuel..

I’d love to know how you define fracking, and how propane, that has been part of the refining stream since the early 1900’s, is solely from fracking?

Keep in mind that as you answer this question I’m a field engineer with 20+ years of experience in the oil and gas sector who’s spent many a sleepless night surrounded by a frac spread.

[goboatingnow]

Had an alcohol stove briefly , horrible PoS , switched it to butane. Gas is great for cooking

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Yes, can see what you think is true... but a resounding no. See above.

I was given an origo stove, and I did a comparison, it used basically twice the fuel to do the same thing as a homemade backpacking stove with wind screen. After trying a few times I realized it was a terrible stove and decided to toss it. Over 10 years I used 5 gallons of denatured alcohol, and with this stove, it would be impossible. I still have a gallon from march 2020 with 1/3rd remaining. After this I plan to eliminate alcohol completely and instead produce hydrogen from solar.

Originally Posted by Don C L

I have no idea how efficient my Origo is, but it serves me well. If I am cooking something for more than a few minutes, the box will become hot but it is not a problem.

Not a problem how? If the box is hot this is a clue it is wasting energy. It is a very large metal box which acts as a heatsink pulling heat away and dissipating it. The flame contacts metal in the stove before reaching the cooking vessel: the origo stove is a bad design.

I have high temp silicone sheets I put over the tank when I am done cooking to quell evaporation.

Everyone knows the sliding seals on these stoves are not perfect and leak. if you leave them a few weeks there will be nothing left. I am not sure how your silicone sheet works, but unless it's a perfect seal, the alcohol will evaporate out. Now maybe there is a special cap which loses a gram a month in which case it's fine, however I have met several people using this stove, none of them had a cap. I did not know the cap existed until mentioned here.

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

I’d love to know how you define fracking, and how propane, that has been part of the refining stream since the early 1900’s, is solely from fracking?

Electricity on the power grid is not solely from polluting sources, but using power from the grid still contributes to pollution. Using propane supports fracking.

Keep in mind that as you answer this question I’m a field engineer with 20+ years of experience in the oil and gas sector who’s spent many a sleepless night surrounded by a frac spread.

With this admission, you owe a far larger debt than most.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

... Not a problem how? If the box is hot this is a clue it is wasting energy. It is a very large metal box which acts as a heatsink pulling heat away and dissipating it. The flame contacts metal in the stove before reaching the cooking vessel: the origo stove is a bad design.... This statement is nonsensical to any engineer. The boxes is being heated by radiation that would be wasted to the open air in an open stove. Think about it. Heat from a flame is both convective and radiant, and while the convective portion (flame) goes up, radiant heat goes everywhere. Re-read my post.



Everyone knows the sliding seals on these stoves are not perfect and leak. if you leave them a few weeks there will be nothing left. I am not sure how your silicone sheet works, but unless it's a perfect seal, the alcohol will evaporate out. Now maybe there is a special cap which loses a gram a month in which case it's fine, however I have met several people using this stove, none of them had a cap. I did not know the cap existed until mentioned here.... Your defense is that none of you sought out and read the instructions? Google works, and the caps work very well, thank you.


This is the very first link that came up. See page 3, Gaskets.

https://www.marlow-hunter.com/wp-con...e%20Manual.pdf


No, the slider is not a seal, it is ONLY there to regulate the flame. Sort of like criticizing a pair pf pliers because they don't make a good hammer.

See above.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Electricity on the power grid is not solely from polluting sources, but using power from the grid still contributes to pollution. Using propane supports fracking.

With this admission, you owe a far larger debt than most.

So, you cannot define fracking?

[ChrisJHC]

I use a DIY alcohol stove while camping and would never use it on a boat. They’re not stable and would be affected by wave action. I would not be prepared to take the risk of accidents which would lead to burning alcohol being spilt around the inside of my boat.

I also use a gimballed alcohol stove on one of the boats that I sail offshore on and find it fine as long as you just want to cook simple things. Most of my “cooking” only involves boiling water. They do take a while but I’m okay with that.

I’ve also used gas stoves on other boats and they’re great for more complicated cooking and are generally faster and easier.

Summary: gimballed alcohol stoves are great for short trips and simple cooking. Gas stoves for longer trips and more involved dishes.