Has the all-electric galley come of age?

[JanetGroene]

I've been amazed at how many 12-volt galley appliances are available thanks to truckers who cook on board their rigs. The 12-volt Waring blender is a real powerhouse and little 12-volt skillets and ovens are ideal for small boats, small crews. I'm also with Dockhead about carrying a single burner hotplate, even if it's just for sometime use. Induction is amazing but heavy. A cheap Calrod unit is light weight to stow and it heats a tea kettle in a jiffy.

[CatNewBee]

Of course, there are many ways to do it, we have push it to the edge using regular fancy home appliances on our cat, as proof of concept and for our liveaboard bluewater journey we will start next year.

It will be our home for several years and we want to be comfortable under way, the galley and the water making is very important to us, we want to have the energy we use in any situation available.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

The induction array...Attachment 176311

What's you battery bank, inverter, solar array setup to power these?

[john61ct]

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ey-201795.html

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Of course, there are many ways to do it, we have push it to the edge using regular fancy home appliances on our cat, as proof of concept and for our liveaboard bluewater journey we will start next year.

It will be our home for several years and we want to be comfortable under way, the galley and the water making is very important to us, we want to have the energy we use in any situation available.

My advice is to make sure you have an alternate source of energy. The genset can fail (it's a motor, after all) and the batteries and inverters must be really robust to supply that power. So, put big alternators on those twin engines, good smart regulators, and a big (Huge) inverter, you should be good.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by wingssail

My advice is to make sure you have an alternate source of energy. The genset can fail (it's a motor, after all) and the batteries and inverters must be really robust to supply that power. So, put big alternators on those twin engines, good smart regulators, and a big (Huge) inverter, you should be good.

Actually, I finally read all 11 pages of this thread, and I see you have pretty much covered yourself. Excuse my previous post.

However, aside from the really extensive high end electronics, I wonder how redundant it is, or subject to failure in the marine environment.

And finally, you project a life expectancy of 10-15 years and an expense of 16,000 euros. well, that's over 1,000 euros per year just for all the equipment. Seems a bit rich for my blood.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Actually, I finally read all 11 pages of this thread, and I see you have pretty much covered yourself. Excuse my previous post.

However, aside from the really extensive high end electronics, I wonder how redundant it is, or subject to failure in the marine environment.

And finally, you project a life expectancy of 10-15 years and an expense of 16,000 euros. well, that's over 1,000 euros per year just for all the equipment. Seems a bit rich for my blood.

Well a 40ft cat is not cheap either... So what's the point?
We will be liveaboards for many years, this is an investment in comfort and safety.

The electric system is not only for cooking, and if you instead go daily to Mc Donalds where the average meal is around 8€, you'll spent 4 times more than that in a year.

If you rebuilt your brick home and add a new galley, it will cost you more, without free energy.
We pay yearly 2k for electricity alone in our condo on shore, its just for the energy, no devices.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well a 40ft cat is not cheap either... So what's the point?

Sorry, didn't mean to be judgmental. You've done a fine job of building this system and documenting it. I've learned a lot from reading about it and I have a new-found respect for the possibilities of Lithium batteries and all electric appliances. I guess I'm just too much in the habit of comparing return on investment.

I say that because, my electric system costs, all up, about $2500USD and while it does not supply all the conveniences of yours, it has lasted me, with periodic replacement of batteries and components for 32 years. I cook with propane however, heat domestic water that way too, and use shore power for air conditioning. The biggest electrical demand is refrigeration, which takes about 1400watts daily, in tropical waters. After that, computer screens. Propane usage costs me about $5USD/month. And it has been reliable and fixable at sea. In all these years of cruising and living aboard we have never had a non-recoverable system failure in the electrical system (or any system, actually).

But we all chose what kind of a cruising life we want and how to spend our money. Me, I like to cruise and sail a very simple boat, which means I have less stuff to keep running, and I spend, in most people's view I guess, way too much on sails.

Our choices.

[CatNewBee]

Sure, no problem, I do not judge on money or choices somone has done for his boat, I just want to show what is already possible. There are so many different approaches and solutions, battery capacities and usage pattern in forums, youtube channels etc., we all can learn from each other.

I do know propane/buthane well, and made the decission to ban it on board, just because proper maintenance under way may be difficult (availability of certified parts), it is dangerous and also dealing with various standards in different countries may create some headache.

[Nickodemus]

Originally Posted by travellerw

First, I want to say that yours post was well thought out.

Your propane estimate is absolutely right on the money for our boat for the last 3 years of cruising. We get between 30-40 days on a 20lb propane bottle (stove and oven only).

However, your post has really got me thinking. I'll bet I could cut my propane usage 1/3 by simply boiling our water on an induction plate. Hell, much of what we cook is just boiled water (coffee, pasta, rice, risotto, ect). I don't need a whole "electric galley", simply one induction burner with a good kettle to make the boiled water based items.

Now as to the battery thing.. I think the biggest killer of FLA batteries on boats is the fact that we DON'T get back to %100 every day. Sure in a floor sweeper they pull them to %50, but then plug them in and go back to %100 over the long night. Even with 1000W of solar, I get very close to being back at %100, but that long absorbtion cycle is a killer (especially in winter). Its not uncommon in winter to go 4-5 days before hitting true %100 on our old FLA bank. Doing that for 3 years of full time cruising means we had over 1000 cycles on our bank with that "poor maintenance". I'm guessing I could have eeked another year or 2 out of them, but I really think 5 years on a full time cruising bank is close to max.

Anyway.. Interesting post that got me thinking.

An electric kettle can solve most of those problems without going to the expense or space issues of an induction plate. Simply boil the water and then put the water in the pot on the stove and proceed as usual on the gas burner. You can get a decent electric kettle on Amazon for about $20.

[CatNewBee]

Well, it's not just about boiling water, it is about having a full functional residential kitchen on board.

There are many steps in between, starting with a microwave ovens, contact grills, hotplates, electric water kettles, bread makers and electric pots. They are supplemental to the propane installation and do some transition toward electric.

But an all-electric (like in the tread headline) means no other other energy source anymore.

The questions that rise are:

- how many energy is necessary for the most complex meal you want to be able to cook on a day
- how many burner do you need to run in parallel for this
- how many energy do you need to bake something - like bread, pizza etc.

- how you want to produce this energy
- how you want to store this energy
- how long you want to survive without re-charging (e.g. bad weather...)

What we found out is, its not that bad. A decent meal with side dishes needs often 3 burner cook-top, induction needs a lot of Amps but is efficient. So for a meal with meat in the pan, potatoes or rice as side dish in a pot and veggies in another pan or pot side by side cooking takes around 150..250Ah, a pizza, lasagna, moussaka in the oven takes 100..150Ah etc.
on top of your regular energy budget.

It is completely doable. The big challenge are the Amps, there can be currents up to 400A - so FLA is not an option for 12V installations, because of the voltage drop. The only viable solutions are LFP batteries or going to high voltage banks (FLA with 48V). Also the inverter must be a beast - the Victron Quattro 5000 is absolutely sufficient if you not overstretch the use of the power boost function on the induction fields.

Now to re-charge. It is not that hard to re-charge that energy with a large solar array using high efficient domestic modules, there are some with 360Wp around 1m x 1.5m in size. Again LFP charges faster then FLA and has a lot of advantages.

Another source can be a generator - usually available for the A/C and water maker on board. You do need a high Amp charger, they are expensive - but if you go for a combi-device like thje Victron Quattro - you get one 220A charger built-in. It also helps on shore power - even on weak outlets - you can use the power boost function.

You can upgrade your alternators too, but I do not see the main engines as source for electricity. They are busy enough to push the vessel when motor-sailing and I try to not use them at all if possible.

Now redundancy. Given the fact, that the system runs either on 12V battery + inverter (charged by solar) or on generator (diesel) or on shore power - there is enough redundancy built in. If you add the alternators, there is then another source.

Now to the sizing. You can start with 400Ah LFP, it would work, but it is on the edge. 700Ah LFP would give you enough for all your other stuff and cooking on a average day, 1000Ah will allow even some bad weather days in series without running the generator. If you do not use solar, you can either cook direct on generator power or re-charge daily by the genny for 1h. It is not that bad.

I do not know, what you spent on electricity at home / on your vessel, but you can calculate your savings using solar over time yourself. This then may justify the investment.

[Nickodemus]

[QUOTE=CatNewBee;2717404]Well, it's not just about boiling water, it is about having a full functional residential kitchen on board.

There are many steps in between, starting with a microwave ovens, contact grills, hotplates, electric water kettles, bread makers and electric pots. They are supplemental to the propane installation and do some transition toward electric.

But an all-electric (like in the tread headline) means no other other energy source anymore.

The questions that rise are:

- how many energy is necessary for the most complex meal you want to be able to cook on a day
- how many burner do you need to run in parallel for this
- how many energy do you need to bake something - like bread, pizza etc.

- how you want to produce this energy
- how you want to store this energy
- how long you want to survive without re-charging (e.g. bad weather...)

What we found out is, its not that bad. A decent meal with side dishes needs often 3 burner cook-top, induction needs a lot of Amps but is efficient. So for a meal with meat in the pan, potatoes or rice as side dish in a pot and veggies in another pan or pot side by side cooking takes around 150..250Ah, a pizza, lasagna, moussaka in the oven takes 100..150Ah etc.
on top of your regular energy budget.

It is completely doable. The big challenge are the Amps, there can be currents up to 400A - so FLA is not an option for 12V installations, because of the voltage drop. The only viable solutions are LFP batteries or going to high voltage banks (FLA with 48V). Also the inverter must be a beast - the Victron Quattro 5000 is absolutely sufficient if you not overstretch the use of the power boost function on the induction fields.

Now to re-charge. It is not that hard to re-charge that energy with a large solar array using high efficient domestic modules, there are some with 360Wp around 1m x 1.5m in size. Again LFP charges faster then FLA and has a lot of advantages.

Another source can be a generator - usually available for the A/C and water maker on board. You do need a high Amp charger, they are expensive - but if you go for a combi-device like thje Victron Quattro - you get one 220A charger built-in. It also helps on shore power - even on weak outlets - you can use the power boost function.

You can upgrade your alternators too, but I do not see the main engines as source for electricity. They are busy enough to push the vessel when motor-sailing and I try to not use them at all if possible.

Now redundancy. Given the fact, that the system runs either on 12V battery + inverter (charged by solar) or on generator (diesel) or on shore power - there is enough redundancy built in. If you add the alternators, there is then another source.

Now to the sizing. You can start with 400Ah LFP, it would work, but it is on the edge. 700Ah LFP would give you enough for all your other stuff and cooking on a average day, 1000Ah will allow even some bad weather days in series without running the generator. If you do not use solar, you can either cook direct on generator power or re-charge daily by the genny for 1h. It is not that bad.

I do not know, what you spent on electricity at home / on your vessel, but you can calculate your savings using solar over time yourself. This then may justify the investment.[/QUOTE

Of course I realize this entire thread is about a fully functional residential kitchen - I am a liveaboard myself. That’s why I quoted the particular response which I was responding to - in particular, the paragraph that stated:

However, your post has really got me thinking. I'll bet I could cut my propane usage 1/3 by simply boiling our water on an induction plate. Hell, much of what we cook is just boiled water (coffee, pasta, rice, risotto, ect). I don't need a whole "electric galley", simply one induction burner with a good kettle to make the boiled water based items.

THAT is why I responded with the comment about the electric kettle.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Nickodemus

Of course I realize this entire thread is about a fully functional residential kitchen - I am a liveaboard myself. That’s why I quoted the particular response which I was responding to - in particular, the paragraph that stated:

However, your post has really got me thinking. I'll bet I could cut my propane usage 1/3 by simply boiling our water on an induction plate. Hell, much of what we cook is just boiled water (coffee, pasta, rice, risotto, ect). I don't need a whole "electric galley", simply one induction burner with a good kettle to make the boiled water based items.

THAT is why I responded with the comment about the electric kettle.

Sure, no problem, I understood that.

Our meals under way are mostly not just about boiled water and putting something in it, we use very often our pans to fry meat, fish, veggies and other stuff, also we use the oven a lot for baking and cooking. The admiral really needs 3 burner in parallel when it comes to cooking (and I appreciate that). We are also not in the vegetarian / vegan band wagon. Of course there is sometimes some pasta / rice / potatoes / soup on the menu, but this are most often only parts of the meal.

It is a win-win for us. She enjoys cooking and I enjoy eating ;-)

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

It is completely doable. The big challenge are the Amps, there can be currents up to 400A - so FLA is not an option for 12V installations, because of the voltage drop.

I would like to point out that I have personally seen FLA banks that operate at 10,000 amps continuous. If I recall correctly, the + buses were in one 24" wide floor-to-ceiling cabinet and the - buses were in an adjacent one. The banks (there were quite a few) were brought in on 750 MCM copper, if I recall correctly, with crimped two-hole lugs, bolted to large, tinned copper busswork.


400 amps would, by comparison, be a walk in the park, easily achieved with larger batteries, for example, six 2 volt industrial cells in series, or a dozen 2-volt L16s in two series strings.

[Ferrari]

As this theme gathers a little steam, there’s another kitchen appliance which was once popular on sailboats because of its efficiency.
Now operated by a sofistcated computer “Chip” which has many Cooking Programs built in, the Duo Instant Pot series is good from Soup to Yogurt and renders cheap meat cuts into juicy tender entrees.
Check out the versatility of a modern electric Pressure Cooker at www.instantpot.com
F