Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Pelagic]

DH quote... "It would be crazy to have a generator only to service electric cooking. A generator makes sense only if you have an electric-intensive boat and use it for multiple tasks, preferably many of them."

That is true, which is why it is difficult to find one system that fits all.

I really like Nolex/SWL's approach to winter diesel heater, supplemented with propane and Solar for summer.

Their minimalist approach is commendable and works because they favor temperate climates

But in the tropics with temperature and humidity giving you index temps to 40°C , those times with no breeze needs an air con as a liveaboard.

Diving in remote locations requires a dive compressor and questionable shore water, dry months with no rain adds the need for a water maker

So the Generator is still needed for those extreme tropical, remote conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

. . . So the Generator is still needed for those extreme tropical, remote conditions.

There are lots of use cases for having a generator. The good thing about generators is they can support a multitude of different uses on board -- washer, dryer, electric cooking, air conditioning, watermaker, power tools, dive compressors, and on and on and on. Once the cost and maintenance overhead is distributed across all these uses, then the generator doesn't seem like a bad deal. Although gas is a much simpler system, it costs something and it does require simple but careful maintenance, so it's a worse deal than electrical since the system serves only one use.


But there are other ways to skin those cats, as Noelex has shown us And CatNewBee. Or you just don't use so much electrical power. We were happy on our last boat with no generator. We had a modest solar installation, didn't run aircon off shore power, had no watermaker or washer/dryer. We were quite contented. There are all kinds of different configurations possible here.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

DH quote... "It would be crazy to have a generator only to service electric cooking. A generator makes sense only if you have an electric-intensive boat and use it for multiple tasks, preferably many of them."

That is true, which is why it is difficult to find one system that fits all.

I really like Nolex/SWL's approach to winter diesel heater, supplemented with propane and Solar for summer.

Their minimalist approach is commendable and works because they favor temperate climates

But in the tropics with temperature and humidity giving you index temps to 40°C , those times with no breeze needs an air con as a liveaboard.

Diving in remote locations requires a dive compressor and questionable shore water, dry months with no rain adds the need for a water maker

So the Generator is still needed for those extreme tropical, remote conditions.

I don’t see tropical conditions as being extreme, uncomfortable for me yes, but not extreme.

About 3 billion folks live in the tropics, most without AC.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I don’t see tropical conditions as being extreme, uncomfortable for me yes, but not extreme.

About 3 billion folks live in the tropics, most without AC.

Outside Temperature index today was 44°C and Zaida was baking pans of apple/walnut bread..

Painters were sanding for topoat paint tomorrow, so no hatches could be opened.

Add to that a 5 hr "brownout" as they call power failures here and I would suggest that having a generator avoided an extremely uncomfortable day.

[s/v Jedi]

The tropical regions and the polar regions do represent the climate extemes on this planet.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We would typically test using the pressure gauge observed over an hour. Interesting, does Auspicious have such a gauge, does he do such tests?

I have a pressure gauge between the solenoid and the tank. I don’t see that as a problem. I can do a leak-down test by leaving the solenoid engaged and turning off gas at the tank valve. I have not currently done regular testing. I will now. I don’t find it onerous. I can set up and write down the pressure before bed and check the pressure again in the morning before starting coffee. That should be enough time. *grin*

I like the simplicity of a bubble tester. It’s on my list. I question whether the added convenience is worth two extra connections, albeit inside the separate vented propane locker.

This story cropped up in the last few days. For the fire/explosion discussion please consider:

To all of our cruising family, it is with deep regret that we share the devastating news of the loss of Kokopelli during our passage back to Panamarina from the San Blas on May 25th.At approximately 12:00 local time, 2 miles east of the Magotes entrance to Linton Bay, we detected smoke coming from the interior of the portside hull. Liz called a Pan-Pan on channel 16 and shut down the engines and killed all circuit breakers while Alan went to port to identify the source of the smoke. He attempted to extinguish the fire on the port engine/generator compartment, but it was already too hot to open the compartment and additional smoke began pouring out.Liz called a Mayday on both the ship station and handheld VHFs on channel 16 which went unanswered and we prepared to abandon ship. While Liz launched the dinghy, Alan went below and grabbed whatever he could of passports, clothing, water, our abandon ship bag, and EPIRB and threw them into the cockpit while Liz got them into the dinghy. When flames began pouring out of the portside salon hatch, we abandoned ship and moved safely away from the boat in the dinghy as explosions began occurring. We remained with the vessel after calling the marina manager to notify AeroNaval. After approximately 20 minutes, the AeroNaval arrived and took us aboard for which we are extremely grateful. We are very thankful for the assistance, professionalism, and compassion they showed in returning us safely to shore .Approximately 40 minutes from the detection of the problem, Kokopelli had burned to the waterline and sank. We want to express our sincerest and deepest appreciation to all of our cruising family who have been there to support us as we mourn the loss of Kokopelli, which has been our winter home for the last 13 years.

It is not lost on me that the crew survived apparently without significant injury. They were fortunate the incident occurred when both were awake. I am disturbed by what appears to be poor firefighting skills (the implication they would have opened the engine compartment if they could). One or both could have easily died.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think the issues are spills, and invisible flames.

Agree those are the issues with alcohol, and insurance statistics indicate they are issues of concern.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

When designing boat systems to provide redundancy, the quality and performance of the back up system is important. One criterion I like to consider is “would you alter your cruising plans to repair the main system, or is the back up good enough that this could be delayed until a repair was convenient.”

I would alter cruising plans. Set aside fire, explosion, and flooding and people rarely get in trouble because of one failure but due to a cascade of failures. See my Moody delivery story buried somewhere in the thread above. So I would alter plans. I would certainly pick the best place for repairs regardless of convenience and a good back-up provides more flexibility in that decision-making.

For example, when the hydraulic backstay adjusters failed on a Trintella 50 (thank goodness for running backstays) we pulled into Stock Island (just East of Key West) and implemented a temporary fix (twelve falls of Dyneema on each backstay) before proceeding to Fort Lauderdale for permanent repairs. Better choice of services, better shipping, better transportation for crew timing out. We might have proceeded to Annapolis with Dyneema and running backs but what if we had another failure of something else and the rigging expedient limited our options? The conservative response is to replan for good solid repairs.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The tropical regions and the polar regions do represent the climate extemes on this planet.

I disagree with that characterization. There are several ways to define extreme. One is for heat, the other is for water availability.

I will agree that polar regions are extreme, very cold and very dry. Very little life grows there.

Tropical regions, not so much. Where there is water there is generally plenty of life and human population. While I admit that there are probably places with moisture availability that are so hot that little grows there, I believe they are kinda rare. The places that are that hot generally evaporate most of the available water and become deserts.

Pelagic calling the tropics extreme seems like an attempt to objectively justify having AC. Maybe he doesn’t want to be seen as a wuss because he chooses to have AC, maybe he doesn’t want to be seen as “Not Green” because he uses AC, maybe he or his wife have a medical condition that make any heat stress a medical issue but they don’t want to discuss that publicly, maybe one or both of them is unable to acclimatize to the heat/humidity, maybe some other reason.

Calling tropical weather extreme when 3Billion people live there, mostly without AC, seems to me to be intellectually suspect.

[rslifkin]

Just because the people live in the tropics doesn't mean they aren't extreme. But you hit on the key point in your post. They *live* there. Which means they're adapted to that climate. For someone used to more moderate weather (or the extremes of the arctic), a short stay in the tropics is likely to be pretty unpleasant without a way to cool off.

Other than needing to consume an amazing amount of water, I find (as someone from a temperate climate) that it's much easier to be comfortable in a desert at 100 degrees and very dry compared to somewhere that's 90 degrees and humid.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

II would alter cruising plans.

This can be the wise decision for many failures.

However, with good system design this can often, or at least sometimes, be avoided.

Using cooking as an example, our previous yacht did not have a drip fed diesel stove or induction cooking (more to the point it did not have enough solar panels to generate the electrical power). So failure of one of these systems on our current yacht would be a poor reason for making a major diversion. After all we happily cruised on a similar yacht without these systems for over a decade. The repair could wait until a convenient time.

A diversion to repair a critical system can be necessary, but sometimes this in itself can create additional risks. There is not just convenience, but also sometimes a safety factor in being free to continue with original plans.

Cruising yachts are increasingly fitting complex and failure prone systems with a perceived goal of greater convenience. I am all for for making life easier. Cruising should not be hard, but diverting to a busy port to seek out a technician who may not speak the same language and then waiting for spare parts is not convenience.

My philosophy is buy the best most reliable equipment you can, keep it simple and where possible have back up systems (that still work well) for the essentials. This thread on cooking is only focusing on a small aspect of cruising, but this philosophy can be extended to many boat systems.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I have a pressure gauge between the solenoid and the tank. I don’t see that as a problem. I can do a leak-down test by leaving the solenoid engaged and turning off gas at the tank valve. I have not currently done regular testing. I will now. I don’t find it onerous. I can set up and write down the pressure before bed and check the pressure again in the morning before starting coffee. That should be enough time. *grin*

I like the simplicity of a bubble tester. It’s on my list. I question whether the added convenience is worth two extra connections, albeit inside the separate vented propane locker.

In my opinion, regular checks of the entire system for leaks are really important for reasonable gas safety.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

This story cropped up in the last few days. For the fire/explosion discussion please consider:

It is not lost on me that the crew survived apparently without significant injury. They were fortunate the incident occurred when both were awake. I am disturbed by what appears to be poor firefighting skills (the implication they would have opened the engine compartment if they could). One or both could have easily died.

Relatively few people seem to actually die in boat fires, as horrifying as they are.


Note that there is a really big difference in the boat being destroyed in 40 minutes, vs 40 milliseconds -- that's the difference between fire and explosion.


Another note about boat fires -- according to the Boat US statistics I saw, only 7% or something of boat fires come from AC power systems. I think AC power systems are relatively safe, especially 230v ones, with just a few obvious weak points -- shore power connection being the main one, and I would bet (although the statistics don't break it out) this is the origin of the large majority of AC power system caused fires. Most electrical fires come from DC systems.



That doesn't stop me from being careful with AC power, checking tightness of connections, inspecting cabling, shooting the infrared thermometer. But I probably wouldn't do all that, or at least not so frequently, if I were not a very heavy user of AC power, doing even heating on board with it.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by malbert73

In fairness this probably reflects pressurized alcohol stoves which can be unsafe due to operator error and the need to preheat

Origo stoves are probably the safest imaginable flame type cooktop. I took out my CNG system and replaced with origo stove and microwave/induction oven due to difficulty sourcing CNG

I thought Domestic bought and then killed off the twin Origo stoves?

Pete

[ScotYount]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I thought Domestic bought and then killed off the twin Origo stoves?

Pete

they did...but i bought one of the last ones so i am a bit future proof when my CNG thing is no longer easy...but right now it is still pretty easy where I live.

[malbert73]

Yeah I heard that but I also have one. Bummer though as I really like simplicity and performance of it. Not as good as propane but I sleep better at night onboard with wife and 2 young kids and no pressurized flammable gas

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

This can be the wise decision for many failures.

I don’t disagree with you. If the system for WiFi distribution of movies fails, I’m not stopping. *grin*

For mission critical systems (propulsion, navigation, feeding people, etc.) I’m stopping.

If a system is important enough for you to have a back-up and you find yourself using your back-up it is time to reconsider your plans. That doesn’t mean a crisis response, but it does mean getting back to 100% when you can, as soon as you can.

If the back-up is holding you can look ahead in your plan and choose someplace not too far off you plan to loiter for repairs. A year is a long time. A day is a crisis response. Each boat (well, their crew) must make their own determination but I’ll say that sooner is better than later.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Relatively few people seem to actually die in boat fires, as horrifying as they are.

I have personally witnessed the death of two people and a cat. As we have discussed before, anecdotal stories are not statistically significant. Still was horrifying. I’ve also read accounts of explosions in which more often than not people on the boats were blown clear by shock waves. Also not statistically significant. N.B. Most of the explosions were related to gasoline fueling and not propane. It would be interesting to run down the MAIB reports for the incidents you cited and see if the explosions were initiating events or subsidiary to a fire.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I disagree with that characterization. There are several ways to define extreme. One is for heat, the other is for water availability.

I will agree that polar regions are extreme, very cold and very dry. Very little life grows there.

Tropical regions, not so much. Where there is water there is generally plenty of life and human population. While I admit that there are probably places with moisture availability that are so hot that little grows there, I believe they are kinda rare. The places that are that hot generally evaporate most of the available water and become deserts.

Pelagic calling the tropics extreme seems like an attempt to objectively justify having AC. Maybe he doesn’t want to be seen as a wuss because he chooses to have AC, maybe he doesn’t want to be seen as “Not Green” because he uses AC, maybe he or his wife have a medical condition that make any heat stress a medical issue but they don’t want to discuss that publicly, maybe one or both of them is unable to acclimatize to the heat/humidity, maybe some other reason.

Calling tropical weather extreme when 3Billion people live there, mostly without AC, seems to me to be intellectually suspect.

Hi Adelie
First of all, I have no objection to being called a wuss!
I do like to remain comfortable and energetic, despite the climate.

I agree Tropical residents shore side in well ventilated and shaded homes with Nipa vented roofs are far more comfortable and naturally cooled than an all steel boat, designed to be watertight.

Yet no one considers tropical families or offices inside high rises wusses if they have aircon?.. except maybe you)

Humidity is also a big factor in enclosed spaces and here we average 80-90% RH year round, kicking heat index to mid 40‘s.

If you allow everything onboard to remain wet and sticky....all kinds of technical and hygenic problems occur in your home.

Lastly, you seem to have a "Not-Green" objection to AirCon,
....but does that also apply to environmentally damaging heaters in the polar regions?

I've worked in Alaska in winter and can handle the cold much easier than the "extreme" heat and humidity of equatorial Asia.

In Alaska, you can dress for it!

....But if you follow that same logic for heat and undress...
...... You may get arrested!