Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Mag3

look earlier in the thread.. i attached the product PDF info sheet to the post where i mentioned it!

One of the questions was 120 or 240VAC power. That isn't in the PDF.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

One of the questions was 120 or 240VAC power. That isn't in the PDF.

Yeah that would be nice to know. I am considering induction but have no interest in going to 240V.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Yeah that would be nice to know. I am considering induction but have no interest in going to 240V.

My opinion on induction in general and on boats in particular is no secret. At 120V you're going to have a tough time with more than one hob.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Ah. You can’t see the mainsail well at all from any of the Amel’s I’ve delivered anyway.


Just no. Not any better than the little plastic window in a bimini or the hatches in a hard dodger. You can’t look up and see the whole leech.


So you can’t see the main regardless.


When you’re sailing you need to see the sails. All of them.

You seem to be implying that on a proper boat you should be able to look up from anywhere in the cockpit and see all the sails?

Yes if racing, but not necessary if cruising where an important priority is to keep out of harsh weather elements.

5 steps back from my helm and I can inspect my Aft Sails, the other 3 I can see from the wheel.

Sailing is by feel more than sight, otherwise we would all be flailing in the dark

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

You seem to be implying that on a proper boat you should be able to look up from anywhere in the cockpit and see all the sails?

Not exactly. What I am saying is that you should be able to see all the telltales on all the sails from two places in the cockpit: behind the wheel and in the spot where the watch huddles (usually under the dodger). I'm certainly okay with leaning back or forward without otherwise moving one's nether regions. Five steps is pretty far. What do you do when, not if, the autopilot looses its mind?

Racing isn't relevant. This is a matter of safety, efficiency, and care for the boat.

I absolutely agree with you that sailing, especially watchkeeping, involves all the senses. You may feel a vibration in aforementioned nether regions before hearing it. You may hear something before seeing it. For sail trim and chafe it's pretty hard to beat sight. Even a crusty curmudgeon like me who may be awakened because the boat doesn't "feel right" needs to see.

Permanent enclosures are simply not a good idea. I'm all for a bimini and even curtains at anchor. Underway I want to see the sails. Sunscreen, a hat, and a good dodger are plenty for weather protection. Oh - I got one of those neck tubes (apparently counts as a mask for CV-19) and it is MUCH better than a bandana for protecting the back of my neck. Shhh - don't tell anyone but I wear socks too. *grin*

At the risk of digressing but to your point of other senses, one of the extremely small gender-based advantages of being male, especially an older male, in sailing is that we don't actually lose hair. It just moves around. Hair growing out of one's ears makes a dandy wind speed and direction sensor. I always cut finger and toe nails before a passage but personal grooming related to ear hair waits until landfall. *grin*

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not exactly. What I am saying is that you should be able to see all the telltales on all the sails from two places in the cockpit: behind the wheel and in the spot where the watch huddles (usually under the dodger). I'm certainly okay with leaning back or forward without otherwise moving one's nether regions. Five steps is pretty far. What do you do when, not if, the autopilot looses its mind? . . .

That seems like a high bar. I's not possible on my boat nor any other boat I've owned since the dinghies. With cutter rig, the jib telltales are hard to see from the cockpit. So I walk the deck to check sail trim. When racing, every 10 minutes or so.



But I care about a lot more than telltales anyway -- I like to look up the forestay to see the amount of sag, I like to check the sheeting angle, and I like to look at the shape of the mainsail altogether from different angles, and I can't do any of that from the cockpit even though I don't have any kind of bimini at all.


If the autopilot "loses its mind", I look at the windex.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

My opinion on induction in general and on boats in particular is no secret. At 120V you're going to have a tough time with more than one hob.

If you are trying to boil water on all the burners and broil something in the oven all at once, then yeah, that would be tough.

Pan (& oven) starts are when there’s the biggest demand. Once preheated energy demand falls off significantly.

I have noted in my own cooking that starts tend to be staggered. If you have 2 burners and an oven (preferably convection) and are somewhat conscious of staggering their starts you can probably do fine with a 3kW inverter.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not exactly. What I am saying is that you should be able to see all the telltales on all the sails from two places in the cockpit: behind the wheel and in the spot where the watch huddles (usually under the dodger). I'm certainly okay with leaning back or forward without otherwise moving one's nether regions. Five steps is pretty far. What do you do when, not if, the autopilot looses its mind?

I can do that in my boat, since we do not normally have any Bimini, However we often rig an awning for shade (struck at night) and in that case we have to lean out a bit to see aloft.

But really, Auspicious, a good many sailors put weather protection ahead of visibility of sails, and fully enclosed cockpits are common, as is reduced forward visibility due to low dodgers and high mounds of gear forward, to say nothing of foggy plastic in the dodger.

I don't sail that way and I have doubts about the safety of it, but I don't preach on the subject, except to say occasionally, "I wouldn't trust a sailor who is content to never have the wind in his face."

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That seems like a high bar. I's not possible on my boat nor any other boat I've owned since the dinghies. With cutter rig, the jib telltales are hard to see from the cockpit. So I walk the deck to check sail trim.

Lots of boats have that sort of visibility until owners put up permanent enclosures and fixed solar panels.

Of the other things you list I'll certainly give you a stroll forward for headstay sag. Telltales are my main input for sheet lead. Overall mainsail shape assessment is greatly eased by stripes on the sail or in good light (including a spot) full length battens. You left out halyard tension. *grin*

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If the autopilot "loses its mind", I look at the windex.

I was referring to Pelagic's five steps back to see the aft sail. How do you do that if you have to hand steer? If you've never had an autopilot kick to standby on its own you are indeed fortunate. Sometimes you have to reboot at least the autopilot computer and sometimes the entire navigation suite. Then of course there are failure modes (rudder angle indicator dying, ram failure, structural failure). How is lot's of running around going to work while you're trying to balance the boat so you can lock the wheel and sail straight for a few minutes?

Nothing is perfect. It's hard to find a boat, especially a cutter, that doesn't have some obstruction to visibility on some point of sail. But "10% of the time I can't see the middle genoa telltale anyway so why bother at all" is poor logic.

Originally Posted by wingssail

But really, Auspicious, a good many sailors put weather protection ahead of visibility of sails, and fully enclosed cockpits are common, as is reduced forward visibility due to low dodgers and high mounds of gear forward, to say nothing of foggy plastic in the dodger.

People do many silly things. Lemmings I tell you, lemmings. *grin*

Enclosures and fixed solar panels often not only make visibility difficult but cockpit access awkward or dangerous. Often you can't get a full turn on a winch. Am I preaching? Perhaps. Someone needs to stand up for best practices. Of course many cruising boats rarely sail. That makes things easier. In some cruising grounds they rarely *move*.

I get the appeal of weather protection. I get the appeal of that big space for solar. That doesn't mean that you still have a sailboat when you get done tacking things on.

I've moved a lot of boats and dealt with a lot of trade-offs. Giving up visibility is easily done and ill-advised.

[B23iL23]

As an ex-racing man I suspect getting the sail trim spot on makes little or no difference to a heavily loaded cruiser. What would be of more impact is the quality and cut of the sails and then wing it on the trim. So having visibility of the tell-tales 100% of the time is not a big deal. Personally I would take the increased protection of the hard-top above gaining that extra .1 of a knot.

BTW the original comment was the visibility on the Amel 50 (I have one coming in '22) and while it's not perfect it does allow visibility (mostly) and has rooftop windows that are not obscured by any additional solar added up there. I think they have done a good job on protection vs visibility.

But anyway, what does all this have to do with Induction cooking?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Lots of boats have that sort of visibility until owners put up permanent enclosures and fixed solar panels.

Of the other things you list I'll certainly give you a stroll forward for headstay sag. Telltales are my main input for sheet lead. Overall mainsail shape assessment is greatly eased by stripes on the sail or in good light (including a spot) full length battens. You left out halyard tension. *grin*

I was referring to Pelagic's five steps back to see the aft sail. How do you do that if you have to hand steer? If you've never had an autopilot kick to standby on its own you are indeed fortunate. Sometimes you have to reboot at least the autopilot computer and sometimes the entire navigation suite. Then of course there are failure modes (rudder angle indicator dying, ram failure, structural failure). How is lot's of running around going to work while you're trying to balance the boat so you can lock the wheel and sail straight for a few minutes?

Nothing is perfect. It's hard to find a boat, especially a cutter, that doesn't have some obstruction to visibility on some point of sail. But "10% of the time I can't see the middle genoa telltale anyway so why bother at all" is poor logic.

People do many silly things. Lemmings I tell you, lemmings. *grin*

Enclosures and fixed solar panels often not only make visibility difficult but cockpit access awkward or dangerous. Often you can't get a full turn on a winch. Am I preaching? Perhaps. Someone needs to stand up for best practices. Of course many cruising boats rarely sail. That makes things easier. In some cruising grounds they rarely *move*.

I get the appeal of weather protection. I get the appeal of that big space for solar. That doesn't mean that you still have a sailboat when you get done tacking things on.

I've moved a lot of boats and dealt with a lot of trade-offs. Giving up visibility is easily done and ill-advised.

I don't have any solar or an arch or a bimini for the simple reason that I operate a lot in heavy weather and big sea conditions and do a lot of long uphill passages, so I can't afford the windage. I miss the solar (had it on my last boat), but I just can't afford it.



But I will for sure have a pilothouse on my next boat. With sufficient hatches the visibility isn't that bad, plus you have to step out into the cockpit anyway to do any trimming, and you won't see anything worse from there than you see from any other boat. I'll still be taking my walk around the foredeck every 10 minutes anyway, except in heavy weather, but in heavy weather you're not going to be spending that much time gazing at telltales anyway.

[s/v Jedi]

It’s all BS

Only insecure cruising sailors need tell tails; any decent sailor on their own boat can trim the sails to 95% perfect with their eyes closed. Even inexperienced sailors can be taught easy tricks to verify sail trim with just a look at instruments (like rudder angle).

All this is just because Luddites will find any reason or angle to argue why things like induction cooking or solar power are bad and the old ways are good

[rslifkin]

The hand steering situation is what led me to the camera thought. You'd have to figure out what you want to see and from what angles so you could put cameras in the right spots. But once you've done that, you've got those views whenever you want from wherever you put the display (such as at the wheel). Could even place one on the mast to solve the jib telltale visibility problem Dockhead mentioned.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s all BS

Only insecure cruising sailors need tell tails; any decent sailor on their own boat can trim the sails to 95% perfect with their eyes closed. Even inexperienced sailors can be taught easy tricks to verify sail trim with just a look at instruments (like rudder angle).

All this is just because Luddites will find any reason or angle to argue why things like induction cooking or solar power are bad and the old ways are good

I'm not insecure, I'm lazy that's why I use telltales.
Insecure sailors need electronic wind speed and direction instruments.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

As an ex-racing man I suspect getting the sail trim spot on makes little or no difference to a heavily loaded cruiser.

It makes more difference on a heavily loaded cruiser than a faster boat. Adding the 0.1 knot you suggest saves a 6 kt boat half a day crossing the Atlantic. It will save a 5 kt boat a full day. In my experience paying attention to sail trim with every horizon scan adds much more than 0.1 kt - more like 0.25 to 0.5 kt.

Originally Posted by B23iL23

BTW the original comment was the visibility on the Amel 50 (I have one coming in '22) and while it's not perfect it does allow visibility (mostly) and has rooftop windows that are not obscured by any additional solar added up there. I think they have done a good job on protection vs visibility.

I've only sailed three or four Amels - all 53s and 54s I think. I was not impressed with the visibility from the helm. Too many times having to climb off the seat and step back to see.

Originally Posted by B23iL23

But anyway, what does all this have to do with Induction cooking?

Someone talked about the solar s/he added to support electric cooking and it went from there.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't have any solar or an arch or a bimini for the simple reason that I operate a lot in heavy weather and big sea conditions and do a lot of long uphill passages, so I can't afford the windage.

A point I decided not to raise. We should keep in mind that a boat is a system of systems and every decision has multiple implications.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But I will for sure have a pilothouse on my next boat. With sufficient hatches the visibility isn't that bad, plus you have to step out into the cockpit anyway to do any trimming, and you won't see anything worse from there than you see from any other boat.

Hatches just don't provide good visibility. You can see better, but not great. You have to shift around to see all the bits and then sort that out in your head. The approach defeats the value of glancing up and taking in the picture all at once. Too much time expended for something so simple. The powerboat designers have solved this problem albeit for passengers in the salon. One big expanse of clear plastic of sufficient structural integrity. That would be lovely on a hard top or pilothouse. You'll want to surround that with "NO STEP" labels.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'll still be taking my walk around the foredeck every 10 minutes anyway, except in heavy weather, but in heavy weather you're not going to be spending that much time gazing at telltales anyway.

That's a lot of time out of the cockpit very often. Your boat, your rules.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Only insecure cruising sailors need tell tails; any decent sailor on their own boat can trim the sails to 95% perfect with their eyes closed. Even inexperienced sailors can be taught easy tricks to verify sail trim with just a look at instruments (like rudder angle).

1. You'll need footnotes for that number.
2. 95% for a 6 kt boat means giving up more than 0.25 kt which means a day and a half on a transatlantic.
3. Rudder angle is an important indicator of total sail balance but not individual sail trim. You could use instruments for trial and error "let's try this" but that is error prone and time consuming.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

All this is just because Luddites will find any reason or angle to argue why things like induction cooking or solar power are bad and the old ways are good

So once again rather than talking about merits you resort to name calling. Nice.

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The hand steering situation is what led me to the camera thought.

Lots of experience to be gained from powerboats who use cameras for everything from backing up to monitoring the engine room. What you find is that you can have pretty good detail i.e. "am I going to drive the corner of the transom into a piling in the next six feet." You can't get a good understanding of a big area with any system I've used. Some ICW snowbirds have put cameras at the masthead for bridge clearance. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between "lot's of room" and "definitely not enough room." You can't readily tell the difference between "we're going to 'ting ting ting' the VHF antenna on the girders" and "the anchor light is a goner." I suggest the latter comparison is analogous to sail trim.

I'm all in on engine room cameras looking back along service side. You can add instrumentation (thermometers mostly) in field of view that is great if you don't have a CANBUS engine.