Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s all BS [emoji2]

Only insecure cruising sailors need tell tails; any decent sailor on their own boat can trim the sails to 95% perfect with their eyes closed. Even inexperienced sailors can be taught easy tricks to verify sail trim with just a look at instruments (like rudder angle).

All this is just because Luddites will find any reason or angle to argue why things like induction cooking or solar power are bad and the old ways are good

I agree Nick.

Whenever someone becomes dogmatic about a non safety feature like "tell-tales"....its BS

You adjust to whatever design priorities and resources a boat gives you.

Protecting the crew from the elements happens to be one of my top priorities

I've captained Sparkman-Stephens offshore racers/large Swans/ 70m sailing ships/Off shore Tugs, Steam ships worldwide all pre-gps. All tough, exposed, hot and physical work

On the other end of the spectrom , I ran some of the worlds top Superyachts, before retiring from operations

On those underway, we mostly relaxed in air conditioned splendor in supple leather touch control helm seats, soft music and lovely concierge service from our attractive stewardesses.

I can't achieve that on my boat underway, but neither will I accept the whitewater rafting, weather beaten look that results from an exposed cockpit

Finding solutions to design inconveniences, in the case of cascading failures, comes from accepting and adjusting....

You manage autopilot failures or any other failures intelligently, without descent into panic or castigating another yacht owners priorities as being "wrong"


No dogma, just assessment and proactive management.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

. . . Hatches just don't provide good visibility. You can see better, but not great. You have to shift around to see all the bits and then sort that out in your head. The approach defeats the value of glancing up and taking in the picture all at once. Too much time expended for something so simple. . . .

Where I sail, it's worth it. You step out into the cockpit from time to time for a better view, and/or walk around the deck. But when the air is -5 and it's blowing F6, you NEED to be able to get out of the weather. The pilothouse is worth its weight in gold.



And concerning walking around the deck -- here size and deck layout is crucial. The foredeck is a fearsome place even in fairly benign weather, on boats with narrow side decks. One of the great advantages of boats of a certain size (50'+; better 60'+) is that it is possible to design them with side decks you can safely walk around on. On my boat up to F8 or so walking around the deck is quite OK. Next boat it will be even much better.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Where I sail, it's worth it. You step out into the cockpit from time to time for a better view, and/or walk around the deck.

No comment on the moonroof?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

1. You'll need footnotes for that number.
2. 95% for a 6 kt boat means giving up more than 0.25 kt which means a day and a half on a transatlantic.
3. Rudder angle is an important indicator of total sail balance but not individual sail trim. You could use instruments for trial and error "let's try this" but that is error prone and time consuming.
So once again rather than talking about merits you resort to name calling. Nice.

If you need better than 95% perfect trim, you can always decide to open your eyes, right?

If you can’t set your sail right without looking at tell tails then you have room to learn more about sailing. Tell tails are not invented for that: they are for racing when you need to get the twist perfect to win the race, not for general cruising level sail trim. If you have your ears and maybe a quick look at the luff you should be fine.

Name calling? Seriously you are pulling the victim card? Bless you.

[malbert73]

Yeah I’m an ex racer and like to view the sails and like to be sheltered. Windward panel enclosure if lots of spray so I can sit dry.
I’ve spent tons of time on the rail of dinghies, scows, and keelboats getting soaked. It’s fun. And my cruising boat is different by choice but I can strip the canvas in 20 min if I want the full experience, including my future Bimini solar panels. I can see telltales and both sails albeit with more work than no canvas. No right or wrong answer but I do think folks throw the “safety” word into discussions like this way too much. It’s not unsafe having an enclosure where you have to work a bit harder to gauge the elements any more than an open cockpit where you can get hypothermic or dehydrated/heat exhaustion and lose your edge that way.
I think with a bit of work you can get the same speed as an open cockpit. But I’ll take an extra 1/2 day every single time time on an ocean crossing if I’m out of the sun and rain on the trip

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

Please forgive my ignorance but WTF is dokarvwould? Even Google doesn't seem to know.

Sorry for the delayed response. It is a typo:

Should have been solar would.

Ben

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Yeah I’m an ex racer and like to view the sails and like to be sheltered. Windward panel enclosure if lots of spray so I can sit dry.
I’ve spent tons of time on the rail of dinghies, scows, and keelboats getting soaked. It’s fun. And my cruising boat is different by choice but I can strip the canvas in 20 min if I want the full experience, including my future Bimini solar panels. I can see telltales and both sails albeit with more work than no canvas. No right or wrong answer but I do think folks throw the “safety” word into discussions like this way too much. It’s not unsafe having an enclosure where you have to work a bit harder to gauge the elements any more than an open cockpit where you can get hypothermic or dehydrated/heat exhaustion and lose your edge that way.
I think with a bit of work you can get the same speed as an open cockpit. But I’ll take an extra 1/2 day every single time time on an ocean crossing if I’m out of the sun and rain on the trip

Exactly, I agree 100% with everything you write. Shelter from the elements, good nutrition and able to get enough rest are of much higher importance for an offshore cruising passage than get the last couple percent of speed out of the boat. Everybody who has some offshore passages under the belt knows that

Getting back on topic: induction cooking. No, less visibility of tell tails because of solar panels required for induction cooking is not a good reason to keep using propane. It is by far the most outrageous claim I ever heard against induction cooking

[solecollector]

I have had an induction stovetop for 3 years now and it is epic. Not only do things (on my setup) heat up quicker - it is much, much cooler inside. I also have a small single plate induction stovetop that I can use in the cockpit - and man... that is an awesome option.

I do have lithum batteries - that is the only way I could do this.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

...Getting back on topic: induction cooking. No, less visibility of tell tails because of solar panels required for induction cooking is not a good reason to keep using propane. It is by far the most outrageous claim I ever heard against induction cooking

No, The reasons for staying with gas is that going electric means more batteries, more complexity in the electrical system, and more charging capability including, generally, a LOT more solar. All of this is expensive and complex, but worse, in my view, the structure, weight, and windage of all those watts of solar up there is bad for performance and seaworthiness. That's the deal breaker for me. The loss of visibility is just a by-product.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s all BS

Only insecure cruising sailors need tell tails; any decent sailor on their own boat can trim the sails to 95% perfect with their eyes closed. Even inexperienced sailors can be taught easy tricks to verify sail trim with just a look at instruments (like rudder angle).

All this is just because Luddites will find any reason or angle to argue why things like induction cooking or solar power are bad and the old ways are good

There you go again Jedi, resorting to insults and offensive language. You just said that if I need tell tails I am insecure and not a decent sailor, and if I don't want electric cooking I must be a Luddite, plus you stated that the opinions of others, (not mine) are all "BS", which we know what that stands for. Nice.

People must have a real good feeling after having a conversation with you.

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

this is the layout (roughly).

You can get 3x330 on the stern and 500+ on the roof. The roof are flexible and low profile and invisible unless you are higher than the boat.

And.. You keep some UV off the dinghy .... Nice

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wingssail

No, The reasons for staying with gas is that going electric means more batteries, more complexity in the electrical system, and more charging capability including, generally, a LOT more solar. All of this is expensive and complex, but worse, in my view, the structure, weight, and windage of all those watts of solar up there is bad for performance and seaworthiness. That's the deal breaker for me. The loss of visibility is just a by-product.

That there is a valid argument against an electric galley. I don’t agree with it, but it ain’t B.S. You forgot to list any arguments for the other side so your conclusion is biased and thus flawed.

There you go again Jedi, resorting to insults and offensive language. You just said that if I need tell tails I am insecure and not a decent sailor, and if I don't want electric cooking I must be a Luddite, plus you stated that the opinions of others, (not mine) are all "BS", which we know what that stands for. Nice.

People must have a real good feeling after having a conversation with you.

You’re too late, someone already played that card. Do you not realize that what you write here is a personal attack, a twisting of words, all to make me look bad? You do exactly what you accuse me of, while I did nothing to you.

So let me be clear: when I call something B.S. then that is not an insult or personal attack. It is the arguments brought forward by someone that are called out, which is what discussion forums are for... they are not for giving everyone the gold medal and praise.

Then my use of the word Luddite. I did not call you, nor anyone else a Luddite. I used that word to describe a group who is against technological progress, coming up with any argument, no matter how ludicrous, against the new technology. This is exactly the right word to describe that group.

If you consider yourself one to come with silly arguments, like “induction cooking is bad because you can’t see the tell tales” because you feel the need to go against new technology at all cost, then yes you may consider yourself to be placed in a group described as Luddites. But that is you who puts you there, not me. In fact, I acknowledged your arguments as normal, valid.

Also, I did not say that you are insecure and not a decent sailor. It is you who put those words in my mouth to make me look bad, but it’s a lie. Everyone can read back and see that I did not call you that... in fact, I did not call anybody that. I went against the argument that tell tales are required to achieve decent sail trim and think I am right. If you think I am not right, you should come with arguments for your position instead of resorting to personal attacks.

Also, I did not say that those who are against electric cooking are Luddites. I said that those who come with any silly (tell tales) argument against it can be considered to be in that group.

Anyway, I have no beef with you or anyone else because I know to take the heat when I write confronting replies

[Mag3]

I actually don't know.. Amel is dealing with it for me as part of my build... i'd write oceanchef!

[Na Mara]

I would love to do induction based cooking on my boat but it just isn’t practical. The battery bank is too near the engine to risk Lithium, my boat doesn’t suit huge amounts of solar, and I carry 6 months of propane.

The only part of the system for ditching propane I can readily fit is the genset.

If I had a wide stern with walk through from the aft cockpit to the stern platform so I could keep the arch height low and have lots of solar, and if I could fit Lithium, then I’d do it like a shot. The most dangerous thing on any boat with propane based cooking is the propane system. It would help me sleep at night if I could get rid of it.

[rslifkin]

If you have or are willing to have a genset, you can manage electric cooking. I do it with a non-massive battery bank and no inverter onboard at all yet. Just plan to do your heavy load items (cooking, heating water, etc.) in one shot once or twice a day (we usually do morning and evening) and run the generator for those activities rather than doing it on battery power. For us, that's usually 30 - 45 minutes in the morning (coffee, breakfast, hot water) and 45 minutes to an hour in the evening (dinner, hot water). And if you have limited solar, you get a bit of battery charging time out of those generator runs too.

If you're not cooking on solar / battery, it won't save any money and it's louder, but it does reduce systems complexity a bit (assuming you already had the genset) and lets you reduce your fuel types (and frees up weight and space from the propane tanks).

[Na Mara]

I’ll consider it seriously if I ever need the genset for other reasons (too much running of engine to charge batteries, installation of a water maker, etc). We tend to only eat one hot meal a day and have a large hot water tank that only needs heated every two days or so. We can do hot water for morning coffees from high grade thermos flasks.

If I’ve got the genset anyway, then ditching the gas becomes a fringe benefit but I can’t justify the genset purely to move over to electric cooking when I have great gas autonomy as it is.

The noise probably wouldn’t be too bad for me as I have great sound insulation in the engine bay where it would be housed.