Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Please see my illustrative story earlier in the thread. A complete loss of electrical is not the only problem. 92% of humanity worldwide are omnivores. What to do with all that raw meat? That was part of the provisioning plan.

What raw meat? .
I humbly suggest if there is an emergency on board people would cope perfectly well short term with no meat . Anyway, 92% of people may be omnivores, but I doubt all of them eat meat daily, so for a large number it would not be an issue doing without briefly. In my view this is not a good reason to add the complexity of gas if you have sufficient power to cook electrically.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

And there reasonable people can disagree in the face of the same information. I think they are not very good – better than resistive heat but don’t measure up to gas. Doesn’t work well with woks. Doesn’t work with aluminum cookware. Doesn’t work well with stainless. Stainless clad aluminum is the gold standard in cooking. Cast iron only works if you preheat the bejeepers out of it because the thermal transfer is surprisingly poor. Thermal inertia is great but that means long preheat times (more energy).

My decade old Fissler pressure cooker and pots work well on the induction hotplate. Not quite as quick to a heat up as my thin non stick frypan, but still perfectly good.
I think not wanting to buy a new set of cookware or to modify what you would ideally like to use are two other poor reasons for installing gas.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

So no roasts. Many casseroles off the table. Bread baking becomes more challenging. Can you even use an Omni on induction? Funny shaped bread.

I have never roasted meat in our oven on board. Not everyone wishes to do this, even omnivores.
An Omni pan can’t be used on an induction hotplate, but I successfully make foccaccia style bread and pizza (and cake, scones, cookies, etc) on a frypan.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I am firmly of the belief that cruising need not be camping and giving up truly first rate cooking and therefore first rate food is not a requirement for cruising.

I don’t do second rate . Life is too short for that .
Gas is not required for “first rate” cuisine.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Again and again, the advocates neglect gimballing. I’ve spent too much time on boats with fixed cooktops—mostly power boats and catamarans—with a huge impact on the cook (usually me). See above for usage from my empirical, non-scientific poll of oven usage.

I have not neglected gimbaling and I don’t think everyone else has either. I would advocate sitting a portable induction hotplate on a gimballed shelf with fiddles added. Installing this is a minor task compared to installing a gimballed gas stove with all the necessary components to supply gas.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

As I posted above I built in a portable Engel for supplemental freezer space. The energy consumption of my fixed fridge and freezer (one each) is a lot lower than the portable Engel. Just estimating (based on a quick look in our chest freezer) we store about 25% meat, 65% veg, and 10% breads in the freezer. We find freezer space generally more dear than fridge space. Some of that is because I lose track and store a lot of produce on the counter in baskets so I can use things before it turns.

How many amp hrs does your fixed fridge use at what temperature setting in freezer mode?

Auspicious, it sounds very much as if you love your gas system for cooking and could not do without. Rather than trying to persuade everyone that gas or electricity is universally better, how about we simply agree that needs differ and one solution is not optimum for everyone .

I think the bigger issue to consider here is that only a very small percentage of boats could run an electric galley all year around without long daily generator run times. Very few would have sufficient solar power. In my view, that is the biggest stumbling block.

SWL

PS Frozen bread? Really? I consider frozen bread second rate . Bread or pizza is baked fresh daily on board our boat .

[a64pilot]

Not having a freezer and watermaker I see greatly reduces your electrical demand.
We pack the Engel soilid with meat and run it down to -5F. It will go lower but never stops then. it draws I think 3 to 4 amps pretty much 24/7, my big freezer / fridge doesn’t draw but about an amp more after everything is cold, but can draw as much as 8 amps getting down to set point. The Engel type of machines are actually not efficient at all at lower temps, and it’s due to the lack of insulation, ours sweats, and yes we have the thermal blanket too for it, it helps some, but it still sweats and of course keep something wet and mold grows.
I’m sure raise it’s temp 45 deg F and especially if your in cold climates it will use much less power.
Oddly enough our 14 cu ft fridge / freezer only uses a little more power than the Engel, and is literally 10 times the size, look it up, 14 cu ft equals about 400 quarts.
We primarily freeze meat, most all vegetables are ideally bought fresh whenever possible and or canned for us. Canning vegetables works better than canning meat.

Point being with all that much freezer that is where the majority of our power goes.
I was astonished to see how much power the Engel uses. Its really very inefficient at -5F, +40F would likely be very different. In it’s defense our regular freezer is +10 F, the Engel is the “deep” freeze for longer term storage.

Now to understand Dockheads position if he doesn’t mind that I speak for him, he doesn’t have Solar, and therefore to charge he runs a BIG generator, why not heat water or cook or whatever when that things running? Probably better to put it under a load anyway, or motoring it’s a school bus alternator and 24V at that.
So unlike us Solar guys, whenever he has power, he has mucho excess power. Why not use it?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I think the bigger issue to consider here is that only a very small percentage of boats could run an electric galley all year around without long daily generator run times. Very few would have sufficient solar power. In my view, that is the biggest stumbling block.
.

That’s it in a nutshell, as is in Winter I can’t always get by without a generator run and the catch 22 is if you wait until you decided you can’t it’s a long run to get little power in the bank, so you have to decide in the morning to run the generator or not, so I often do and didn’t need to.
But I don’t want to get to the point of Honey will you start the generator so I can cook supper.
Solar output for me and I’d suppose that I’m typical is very different in July than Dec.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So unlike us Solar guys, whenever he has power, he has mucho excess power. Why not use it?

Our boat runs almost exclusively on solar power (a tiny bit of alternator power is our secondary method of power generation).

The solar power needs to be able to supply enough power to cover our needs in reasonably high latitudes during winter.

We therefore have “mucho excess power” most of the time. Not all boats using predominantly solar power are set up this way, but excess power is not restricted to generator equipped boats.

Induction cooking is one way to use some of this power in a productive way.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That’s it in a nutshell, as is in Winter I can’t always get by without a generator run and the catch 22 is if you wait until you decided you can’t it’s a long run to get little power in the bank, so you have to decide in the morning to run the generator or not, so I often do and didn’t need to.
But I don’t want to get to the point of Honey will you start the generator so I can cook supper.
Solar output for me and I’d suppose that I’m typical is very different in July than Dec.

Don't understand why that's an issue -- is it so hard on your boat to crank up the gennie?


I like my generator and enjoy using it. I usually run it twice a day during times of peak demand.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Our boat runs almost exclusively on solar power (a tiny bit of alternator power is our secondary method of power generation).....Induction cooking is one way to use some of this power in a productive way.

And for those of us not there yet, switching to a more efficient energy storage device than LA batteries can make power available for cooking. Our solar is designed around keeping the LA batteries happy. That means we have "excess" power every afternoon when the batteries are in acceptance and can't take all of the solar output. This is when we make water, or do laundry, or use other energy hungry "optional" devices. Yet we generally still have leftover power.

A switch to lithium (or something similar) that doesn't have the 15% conversion inefficiencies of LA or the Peukert's effects would mean that a solar system designed for LA use would probably be capable of providing all the "extra" power required to move to electric cooking - without having to change anything other than the storage medium. Solar systems designed around truly keeping LA happy are significantly oversized compared with the energy actually consumed aboard.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

A switch to lithium (or something similar) that doesn't have the 15% conversion inefficiencies of LA or the Peukert's effects would mean that a solar system designed for LA use would probably be capable of providing all the "extra" power required to move to electric cooking - without having to change anything other than the storage medium.

The key to a successful solar system, as you indicate, is to produce more power than you use.

The higher battery efficiency with lithium is nice, but the secret to a happy solar based system is producing the most power and using that power efficiently. Usable battery capacity can be important but the technology to achieve this goal is not a significant factor.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Don't understand why that's an issue -- is it so hard on your boat to crank up the gennie?


I like my generator and enjoy using it. I usually run it twice a day during times of peak demand.

Several reasons, first I understand there are only so many number of hours in it, it’s not an inexhaustible resource, assume a full timer, who runs a generator twice a day, and runs it for two hours each time. 4 hours times 365 is nearly 1500 hours a year, that’s a new generator every four years or so. Then realize that it cost with depreciation at least $2 an hour, probably more depending on what yours cost. Take new cost divide by average life, then add fuel and parts, oil etc.
So, $120 a month.
Then the oil change interval for mine is 100 hours, so I would be changing oil every 25 days, which in mine isn’t but about a quart, but that means unloading the Lazarette and changing the oil, every month.

Then you understand why I run a Honda so much, amortized out it’s well under half the price to run and I change its oil at 50 hours, but it’s so easy to do that it takes 5 min tops.
Connect it to a 6 gl outboard tank and dump in 5 gls of fuel every couple of weeks.

I am not anti generator, but do recognize it’s costs and work maintenance wise. So I’ll run it gladly as opposed to water rationing or not watching that movie tonight or not washing clothes or whatever, but I’d rather maximize Solar as much as is possible, if I could have fit 2 KW, I would have 2 KW of Solar, and maybe a 1000 AH battery bank, cause if I had enough boat to fit 2KW of Solar I bet it could hold a 1000 AH battery bank.

But to Seaworthy Lass’s point, average boat especially in Winter does not have the excess power to cook electrically, so I wouldn’t want to have any system on my boat that meant to live the lifestyle that we desire means daily generator runs.
I have to run something to make water, usually of course the generator, but that’s twice a week, or if once a week, it seems to take all day, even at 30+ GPH. So I’d rather have two 3 hours runs as opposed to one 6 hour run.

[Dsanduril]

I get your point, but I'm not in 100% agreement. Most boats are real-estate limited when it comes to solar. A technology that automatically consumes 10-15% of the produced solar power means that power is simply not available. One of the reasons we try to run high demand devices during the day - to avoid that painful roundtrip through the batteries.

Not saying it can't be done with LA (it has), just saying that for those contemplating a move to electric cooking, if you move to a more efficient storage at the same time you may find that you come out even and don't even have a lot to worry about. It's certainly not a cheap option, nor a requirement, but every time I run the numbers it seems there's plenty of power available - if I didn't waste a bunch of it feeding the inefficiencies of the batteries.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

if I didn't waste a bunch of it feeding the inefficiencies of the batteries.

The extra efficiency of lithium is nice, but it is only a very small factor.

The efficiency factor only effects power that is charged and then discharged from the battery. The high demand appliances are typically run during the day and most of the power is supplied directly from the solar panels rather than making the round trip via the batteries, so is not subject to these losses. It is also important to understand that lead acid batteries only lose efficiency when they approach 100% SOC.

If you want to look at efficiency numbers. The efficiency of the solar panels makes far more difference. Spend a little more money here and you can squeeze more watts our of the same sized panel. This will make a significant difference.

[Dsanduril]

At the risk of derailing Dockhead's thread, that's the problem with electric cooking - I can no longer say that most of the load is done when the sun is up. For us, most cooking is done at low solar hours, either in the morning or the evening. We do some during the day, but not a lot.

And yes, anything less than about 20% module efficiency (not cell efficiency) is a waste of space. And the jump from 20% to 21% conversion efficiency sounds small but represents a 5% increase in the available solar power - and possibly a bit more since more efficient panels/cells tend to have lower temperature coefficients. It can be hard to get this across sometimes, but the difference in power production - for the same real estate - between a 16-18% inexpensive solar panel and a 20-22% more costly one can be 20%. If you have the space, sure, use it up with inefficient panels. But in space-constrained installations the difference is very significant.

[BlackHeron]

We've just spent the last 6 weeks in self-imposed isolation in SC nearby a popular marina just off of the ICW. There has been a lot more traffic the past week or two but all during the panic there still have been a handful of cruisers sliding through this anchorage in a daily basis to get to get to that face dock and plug in.

Out of 100 boats that stop for an overnight at a face dock here and plug into power maybe 4 or 5 will drop the hook in this perfectly protected spot with plenty of room. The rest head for the $100 face dock and whip out that last bright yellow "dock line" to plug into the power pedestal before cooking dinner.

So it makes sense when most cruisers are hopping from marina to marina to plug into shorepower to have an electric oven and ditch the scary LP boogyman. The few times a year when they are forced to drop the hook in a place like Mile Hammock where there is no other choice or maybe in the Bahamas, they can simply run the generator and to hell with the noise they are making for everyone else. So many do it anyhow in those anchorages. We don't have or need one, but we can sure hear everyone else's.

The thing I laugh the most at is these same people replacing all their lights with LED upgrades. Why bother when you have so much power to literally burn?

[slug]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

We've just spent the last 6 weeks in self-imposed isolation in SC nearby a popular marina just off of the ICW. There has been a lot more traffic the past week or two but all during the panic there still have been a handful of cruisers sliding through this anchorage in a daily basis to get to get to that face dock and plug in.

Out of 100 boats that stop for an overnight at a face dock here and plug into power maybe 4 or 5 will drop the hook in this perfectly protected spot with plenty of room. The rest head for the $100 face dock and whip out that last bright yellow "dock line" to plug into the power pedestal before cooking dinner.

So it makes sense when most cruisers are hopping from marina to marina to plug into shorepower to have an electric oven and ditch the scary LP boogyman. The few times a year when they are forced to drop the hook in a place like Mile Hammock where there is no other choice or maybe in the Bahamas, they can simply run the generator and to hell with the noise they are making for everyone else. So many do it anyhow in those anchorages. We don't have or need one, but we can sure hear everyone else's.

The thing I laugh the most at is these same people replacing all their lights with LED upgrades. Why bother when you have so much power to literally burn?

Some folks actually sail

After a hard week of so of sailing ....garbage needs to be emptied, boat washed, tanks filled , batteries charged , hot water heated , provisions replenished , laundry done and a good nights sleep off watch

Tied to the dock is the best way to accomplish this

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The extra efficiency of lithium is nice, but it is only a very small factor.

The efficiency factor only effects power that is charged and then discharged from the battery. The high demand appliances are typically run during the day and most of the power is supplied directly from the solar panels rather than making the round trip via the batteries, so is not subject to these losses. It is also important to understand that lead acid batteries only lose efficiency when they approach 100% SOC.

If you want to look at efficiency numbers. The efficiency of the solar panels makes far more difference. Spend a little more money here and you can squeeze more watts our of the same sized panel. This will make a significant difference.

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

At the risk of derailing Dockhead's thread, that's the problem with electric cooking - I can no longer say that most of the load is done when the sun is up. For us, most cooking is done at low solar hours, either in the morning or the evening. We do some during the day, but not a lot.

And yes, anything less than about 20% module efficiency (not cell efficiency) is a waste of space. And the jump from 20% to 21% conversion efficiency sounds small but represents a 5% increase in the available solar power - and possibly a bit more since more efficient panels/cells tend to have lower temperature coefficients. It can be hard to get this across sometimes, but the difference in power production - for the same real estate - between a 16-18% inexpensive solar panel and a 20-22% more costly one can be 20%. If you have the space, sure, use it up with inefficient panels. But in space-constrained installations the difference is very significant.

The problem is where do you get reliable efficiency numbers? Vendors?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYmOKaw8VAk&t=558s

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Several reasons, first I understand there are only so many number of hours in it, it’s not an inexhaustible resource, assume a full timer, who runs a generator twice a day, and runs it for two hours each time. 4 hours times 365 is nearly 1500 hours a year, that’s a new generator every four years or so. Then realize that it cost with depreciation at least $2 an hour, probably more depending on what yours cost. Take new cost divide by average life, then add fuel and parts, oil etc.
So, $120 a month.
Then the oil change interval for mine is 100 hours, so I would be changing oil every 25 days, which in mine isn’t but about a quart, but that means unloading the Lazarette and changing the oil, every month.

Then you understand why I run a Honda so much, amortized out it’s well under half the price to run and I change its oil at 50 hours, but it’s so easy to do that it takes 5 min tops.
Connect it to a 6 gl outboard tank and dump in 5 gls of fuel every couple of weeks.

I am not anti generator, but do recognize it’s costs and work maintenance wise. So I’ll run it gladly as opposed to water rationing or not watching that movie tonight or not washing clothes or whatever, but I’d rather maximize Solar as much as is possible, if I could have fit 2 KW, I would have 2 KW of Solar, and maybe a 1000 AH battery bank, cause if I had enough boat to fit 2KW of Solar I bet it could hold a 1000 AH battery bank.

But to Seaworthy Lass’s point, average boat especially in Winter does not have the excess power to cook electrically, so I wouldn’t want to have any system on my boat that meant to live the lifestyle that we desire means daily generator runs.
I have to run something to make water, usually of course the generator, but that’s twice a week, or if once a week, it seems to take all day, even at 30+ GPH. So I’d rather have two 3 hours runs as opposed to one 6 hour run.

OK, that makes sense.


Generator hours are costly -- fuel is the least of it.



I would probably look at it very differently if I were off grid 365 days a year. As it is, I'm not off grid all the time, or even on the boat all the time, and so I have only 2000-odd hours on my generator after 10+ years, and as it's a heavy duty continuous rated one, I'll never wear it out even if I live to 100. So it's a sunk cost and I don't hesitate to use it. I'm using up hours I already paid for.


I see and understand that your case is different.


Solar of course is brilliant and even more brilliant for those who are off grid continuously, for the reasons you state. I would love to have it myself (had it on my last boat and loved it). Just can't deal with the windage on this boat.