Recycling, a rant

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

...why aren’t the "save the world" people out there demanding that all their great "make the producers pay for the cleanup" ideas be applied to solar panels, lithium batteries, and windmills? Why? Because if you did that, got rid of the government subsidies and paid the disposal fees up front, they’d be uncompetitive. Here’s a chance to avoid a problem before it happens. Do you see any political will from either side to make it happen?

1. Uncompetitive and messy? that's not actually true. Solar and wind are now demonstrably cleaner technologies even including full life-cycle costs and effects, and they are now very competitive even without any support or subsidies.
2. How come there are still substantial subsidies for fossil fuel?
3. Recycling for EVs, and especially for batteries, is already a topic of study. There are also lots of potential uses for EV parts like the motors and pulling good cells out of otherwise retired batteries. Like with autos now, there will be a busy salvage and recycling sector.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Absolutely true, but then the consumers would start making choices that have a lesser environmental impact, and therefore cost less. The packaging of the rubber bands mentioned above is a perfect example. If buying them in hard plastic containers cost more than buying them in a simple paper wrap, most consumers would opt for the paper wrap.

But this is where it gets messy.

The eco crowd would also have us heavily penalize disposable cardboard boxes because they destroy forests to be produced.

Net effect, the cost of with either packaging increases and both still winds up in the waste stream.

The green movement is heavily invested in binary choices that ignore the real world where there are no perfect solutions.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

There's a worthwhile discussion to be had, but when people blithely spout unsupported nonsense about recycling,

...it's the consumer who is more interested in the appearance of being green than actually fixing any problem. Industry simply supplies what the consumer demands.

or otherwise try to rewrite history to fit a childishly naive concept of industry...

Catalytic converters were the result of a wide, bipartisan consensus...

I personally find propaganda to not be agreeable; I recall there are some viewpoints that you have been less than civil about. Is a discussion worth having if prejudices and dogma aren't challenged?

So you are really going to argue the soccer mom driving a 15mpg SUV but has an eco bumper sticker really believes in the cause and is willing to sacrifice to make it happen.

There is plenty of support that much of the eco/green movement is theater. Very hip to support but when the rubber hits the road, they are happy to ignore their "principles".

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Having worked intimately (inside the petroleum industry) with the lead issue in the 70s and 80s, I promise you industry was not playing nice. It was a different time. I work in a different industry now, and it has changed... just a very little, mostly on the surface. What they think you might see, which is more than it used to be.

Cynical? He probably has good reasons. Most industries would love to see environmental controls rolled back. I'm involved in the budget discussion and project planning. Marketing and packaging get a lot more attention than regulated pollution, like wastewater treatment, and unregulated impacts get lip service when they must.

There is also a legitimate fear of the unintended consequences when the govt offers to "help".

Particularly when the govt steps in and starts choosing the winners...like the current push towards electric vehicles when other options are viable...

In some cases, it's truly bad actors and in other cases it's the logical response of a cornered animal to lash out and do what ever they can to survive. When the govt institutes a lot of fear and uncertainty, it's not surprising when there is heavy resistance.

Not saying it's right, just that it's completely expected.

[Bycrick]

I’ve seen no studies/plans for how to recycle solar panels. Do you have a link? I just read a story that older wind generators are now obsolete in less than 10 years because bigger ones are much more efficient. How does one recycle them? Who pays for it? Wind and solar aren’t baseline power suppliers without a substantial investment in storage capacity, just ask Elon Musk.

All these "mandates" and plans/dreams for all electric vehicles in 10-15 years. Disposal and recycling? Well, we’re studying that. We'll get back to you later.

Get rid of fossil fuel and the subsidies, hidden and direct? Try to run for office advocating $5/gallon gasoline or $1/kilowatt hour for electricity and see if you get elected. Ask the people in New Orleans if they want all EVs when a million people are without power. Ask the people in CA how they're going to get to work when the power goes out to reduce fire danger. Or cook their food. Or recharge their cell phone.

This isn’t an advocacy position for the status quo. But remember that one of the great selling points of gasoline powered cars was once upon a time the reduction of pollution: horse **** and dead horses littering the streets of big cities.

I suspect that we are just going to do it again.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But this is where it gets messy.

The eco crowd would also have us heavily penalize disposable cardboard boxes because they destroy forests to be produced.

Net effect, the cost of with either packaging increases and both still winds up in the waste stream.

The green movement is heavily invested in binary choices that ignore the real world where there are no perfect solutions.

That's all unsupportable BS, sorry.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So you are really going to argue the soccer mom driving a 15mpg SUV but has an eco bumper sticker really believes in the cause and is willing to sacrifice to make it happen.

There is plenty of support that much of the eco/green movement is theater. Very hip to support but when the rubber hits the road, they are happy to ignore their "principles".

Where are you seeing these SUVs with such stickers? This is just some lazy stereotype, and not particularly plausible, either. But thanks for continuing to be Exhibit A for the demonizing of anything remotely ecology-minded.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

I’ve seen no studies/plans for how to recycle solar panels....

It's only the sales hype, but:

https://us.sunpower.com/why-sunpower...-certification

...The principles for certification include sourcing materials safe for humans and the environment, and ensuring that these materials are recycled at the end of the products’ life...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Tonali99

I've seen some of those. In Ft.Pierce they actually use the methane to run machinery like generators.On the other hand, when a landfill is closed it could be that hilltop housing development snowbirds dream of.

Larger landfills often do have methane collection systems but it's a very inefficient use of the waste energy stream. The vast majority gets used up in the decomposition process with only a small amount given off as methane and capture techniques are limited.

The problem with post use landfills is they continue to decompose for decades, so subsidence is common...that means any structures are susceptible to failure when the ground sinks. The most common uses are parks & golf courses where it will have minimal impact.

A direct waste to energy system is far more efficient at capturing incoming energy. It makes separating metal easier and the product that does wind up in the landfill is more compact and once compacted it's more stable. Only real hold up is NIMBY.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Where are you seeing these SUVs with such stickers? This is just some lazy stereotype, and not particularly plausible, either. But thanks for continuing to be Exhibit A for the demonizing of anything remotely ecology-minded.

Did a loop of most of the USA last winter and saw them everywhere.

I guess if you don't like facts, you can just claim it to be a stereotype rather than look out your window.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

I’ve seen no studies/plans for how to recycle solar panels. Do you have a link? I just read a story that older wind generators are now obsolete in less than 10 years because bigger ones are much more efficient. How does one recycle them? Who pays for it? Wind and solar aren’t baseline power suppliers without a substantial investment in storage capacity, just ask Elon Musk.

And where are your links? But, since your Google is currently broken: solar panel recycling. You do know that they're mostly sand and metal, right?

All these "mandates" and plans/dreams for all electric vehicles in 10-15 years. Disposal and recycling? Well, we’re studying that. We'll get back to you later.

Get your Google fixed.

Get rid of fossil fuel and the subsidies, hidden and direct? Try to run for office advocating $5/gallon gasoline or $1/kilowatt hour for electricity and see if you get elected. Ask the people in New Orleans if they want all EVs when a million people are without power. Ask the people in CA how they're going to get to work when the power goes out to reduce fire danger. Or cook their food. Or recharge their cell phone.

Silly examples. EVs and infrastructure will evolve and go mainstream together (and the recycling efforts will likewise follow), and EVs don't mean the complete end of the internal combustion engine. Have you heard that Ida has shut down almost all of the Gulf Coast's gas refining capability? Not a problem that EVs would have.

But at least you acknowledge how much of a crutch subsidized fossil fuels are.

This isn’t an advocacy position for the status quo. But remember that one of the great selling points of gasoline powered cars was once upon a time the reduction of pollution: horse **** and dead horses littering the streets of big cities.

What?!? Ridiculous. Cars won out because they became easier and cheaper to have than horses and buggies.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Did a loop of most of the USA last winter and saw them everywhere.

I guess if you don't like facts, you can just claim it to be a stereotype rather than look out your window.

It remains a lazy stereotype. I'm certain you didn't see that many, nor do you have the foggiest notion of whether they were owned/driven by "soccer Moms", or in what ways their owners have been walking the walk re having a smaller footprint. When public transit has been neglected, and recreational spaces are few and far between, how else do you get 6 kids to a soccer field?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

So now you have the hue and cry from the environmentalists: solar power, wind power, and that panacea, electric cars. Instead of trying to change the world, why aren’t the "save the world" people out there demanding that all their great "make the producers pay for the cleanup" ideas be applied to solar panels, lithium batteries, and windmills? Why? Because if you did that, got rid of the government subsidies and paid the disposal fees up front, they’d be uncompetitive. Here’s a chance to avoid a problem before it happens. Do you see any political will from either side to make it happen?

What are you even on about . Of course the same "producer-pays" principle applies to all the above industries. Who said otherwise?

The point of this principle is to incorporate the full life-cycle cost of a product into the price. Right now producers get to externalize this cost onto the commons. This removes the incentives to find efficiencies, and simply dumps the cost onto all of us.

[Bycrick]

If the SUV soccer mom is such an invalid stereotype, why are most of the auto manufacturers stopping manufacturing of small and medium-sized cars in favor of pickup trucks and SUVs? Because that’s what’s selling and they make more money per sales unit.

So your solution is to build the EVs and we will solve the infrastructure and recycling problems along the way or later. That sound exactly the approach we’ve taken with plastic.

[Bycrick]

Of course the producers externalize the costs. What do you expect? The whole idea of business is to get somebody else to pay. Things are packed in plastic because it’s easier for the manufacturer. Better protection in shipping. Easier for the store to stock. Less theft because the package is bigger. Encourages the customer to buy more than they might need. Everybody "benefits." Do you seriously believe that’s going to be changed by ranting about the environment?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

Of course the producers externalize the costs. What do you expect? The whole idea of business is to get somebody else to pay. Things are packed in plastic because it’s easier for the manufacturer. Better protection in shipping. Easier for the store to stock. Less theft because the package is bigger. Encourages the customer to buy more than they might need. Everybody "benefits." Do you seriously believe that’s going to be changed by ranting about the environment?

Change happens when people demand it. In a democracy, that usually starts with "ranting," as you put it. So no... I expect things to change when we demand it through laws and regulations, just as we do in many, many area of production and consumption.

If you believe in free markets, then you should embrace this approach. Right now there are no market signals for producers or consumers, so no one can make an informed choice (a key aspect of "free market" mythology).