Stokelys products

[hellosailor]

Louis, I think the point is that none of us consider your experience to indicate any problem--much less botulism--from that company.

Especially since there have been documented recalls for botulism, and none seem to be from that company. Making it neither more nor less safe than any other source of tinned foods.

You got sick. You ate a Stokely's product. OK, that gives us simultaineity, but it does not give us any cause and effect. Perhaps you hadn't washed the can, and you were reacting to rat or roach poison on the rim. Many vendors spray their canned goods with poisons to keep down the vermin. Most customers don't realize this, but the poison is often on the can, regardless of the canner.

Obviously something disagreed with you, but you don't make the case for it being botulism, or anything particular to Stokely's. One bad can among five billion they made that year? Probably typical of all processed foods and suppliers.

[Islandmike]

people use the word botulism, short for Clostridium Botulinum, for many ailments they may get from eating something. I am licensed to process/can low acid food products, the type that can cause botulism. It is very rare to encounter this, it is caused by not heating the product to the prescribed temp for the prescribed time. This is called F sub zero time. The FDA always errs on the side of caution when establishing the F sub zero for a given product. And with the records that must be kept of the process times and temps, the chance of botulism is very very slim, possible but slim. If it is established that there was a problem there would be a well publicized recall and we would all be aware of the problem.

[Brent Swain]

Health Canada mentioned "container failure"

That was rather vague Brent. Would you please elaborate? Is this in relation to you incident, or other related incidents?

[Brent Swain]

It was in relation to my incident
Brent

Could you provide a link or a specific article so that those who are interested could research the matter?

[Islandmike]

Clostridium Botulinum is an anaerobic spore, meaning it must have oxygen to grow. Generally a damaged or compromised can will not develop the spore because air is able to get to the product. It may however, develop some very nasty stuff, just not botulisium. There should have been a class I recall to warn all that there could potential health risks. I too would be interested in seeing any information on the problem or recall...

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Island Mike

Clostridium Botulinum is an anaerobic spore, meaning it must have oxygen to grow. Generally a damaged or compromised can will not develop the spore because air is able to get to the product. It may however, develop some very nasty stuff, just not botulisium. There should have been a class I recall to warn all that there could potential health risks. I too would be interested in seeing any information on the problem or recall...

Isn't air getting to the product through a compramised can going to provide oxygen to allow the spore to grow?

Have I missed something.

Dave

[N.M.I.ke]

I'm a bit confused by that, too. Perhaps he mean anaerobic must nNOT have oxygen to grow. But I never was good at biology.

[hellosailor]

Dave-
"Isn't air getting to the product through a compramised can going to provide oxygen to allow the spore to grow?" No, botulism only grows in the absence of oxygen. I had thought you could pot crushed garlic by simply putting it up in oil, so I did with some spare garlic. Noticed funny pink and green tints in the bottle and threw it out without trying it, which was very lucky because apparently you need some *acid* as well, or else botulism grows very nicely in potted garlic. Or, anything else that has been grown in the ground, where the spores are everpresent. I don't know what was growing in mine, I wasn't about to find out.


I've had "container failure". Bought a six of beer once that only had five cans filled, a pinhole in #6 emptied it out before we met. Then there was a can of tomato sauce that exploded in the kitchen cabinet one night. Can linings have gotten better in the last decade or so, it used to be that a dented can could stretch the inner coating enough to disrupt it, so acidic contents like tomato sauce could react to the can itself. Apparently less so these days but mom's advice about not buying dented cans and not trusting the ones that bulge still holds. "When in doubt throw it out".

[GordMay]

Anaerobic means “without air” (where "air" usually means oxygen), as opposed to aerobic (which means “with air”). Hence, an anaerobic organism is any organism that does not require oxygen for growth. There are three general types of anaerobes*.

Clostridium Botulinum is an obligate anaerobe*. The Clostridium Botulinum bacterium does not produce toxin in an aerobic environment. These organisms can't grow if air or free oxygen is present in their microenvironment (the area immediately next to them). This area is so small that it is not readily observed. Therefore, it is possible to have conditions develop in a food system or wound whereby it appears that lots of air is available, but in reality there are areas where no air is present and anaerobic organisms, such as Clostridium botulinum, can develop. Anaerobic conditions develop when food is canned. If the food is not heated enough to kill the spores of Clostridium botulinum, the spores will germinate and grow during subsequent storage of the food.

*eg:

Obligate anaerobes (occasionally called aerophobes), such as C. Botulinum, do not need or use O2 as a nutrient. In fact, O2 is a toxic substance, which either kills or inhibits their growth. Obligate anaerobic procaryotes may live by fermentation, anaerobic respiration, bacterial photosynthesis, or the novel process of methanogenesis.

Facultative anaerobes (or facultative aerobes) are organisms that can switch between aerobic and anaerobic types of metabolism. Under anaerobic conditions (no O2) they grow by fermentation or anaerobic respiration, but in the presence of O2 they switch to aerobic respiration.

Aerotolerant anaerobes are bacteria with an exclusively anaerobic (fermentative) type of metabolism but they are insensitive to the presence of O2. They live by fermentation alone whether or not O2 is present in their environment.

Obligate aerobes require O2 for growth; they use O2 as a final electron acceptor in aerobic respiration.

[Islandmike]

Im a moron! I misstated, I failed to put in no in front of oxygen, in fact if you read on I did say that if the can is comprimised air will enter the can and retard or stop the growth. I am sorry for any misunderstanding...

Maybe next time I will check my work

[Islandmike]

Gord,

You are an incredible source of information, I have been in the business of processing low acid food products for many years. I had to dig into my old text to review and refresh my memory on some of the things you stated. Your grasp on such a wide variety of information is awesome. Are you related to Ken Jennings?? All kidding aside this site is very lucky to have you, thanks for all you provide.

[GordMay]

As much as it pains me to admit, I don’t know.
What’s a “Ken Jennings”?

[Islandmike]

Ken Jennings was the guy who won 74 straight games in Jeopardy, Jeopardy is a game show that pits three people each show on a variety of various subjects. It was a big deal, it made the national news. So please understand that when I asked if you were related it was a pure compliment.