Cockpit size for family blue water boat?

[Telemark43]

Originally Posted by Andira

It doesn't look like the picture I included actually posted. Trying as a file now.

On a different note, I trust the propane tank is only in the cockpit on it's way somewhere else... and, if there is no dedicated vented and drained propane storage run away !!

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

We did a five year circumnavigation of the world with two children and a cockpit large enough for everyone to spread out is essential.
The minimum length would be long enough to lie down on the bench seats, with a pillow behind your head, 6ft. plus.
Narrow enough for people to brace themselves across the cockpit with their foot on the opposite side bench is good, though if wider, there should be something to brace your foot against when the boat is heeling and rolling.

good cockpit protection is essential, too, a large dodger that protects the forward end of the cockpit, but is not too high to look over. When we had ours made I stood on the cockpit sole at the helm and had the maker choose the height of my nose (I am 6ft tall). That meant those shorter than me had to look around the sides when steering, though I was usually on the helm in the nasty stuff and could duck my head when the splashes came over and stay dry. If wheel steered, make the wheel easily removed for in port lounging, if a tiller it should pivot up and out of the way.

^^^ All sensible advice there

Although one note. We had a big wheel all the way aft, and we always had a canvas wheel cover that we would fit at anchor or in port.

It covered the wheel, the binnacle, compass, and some instruments too, but to be honest it's most useful feature was as a 'privacy shield'.

After a swim (or before going ashore for the evening) one could stand behind it, even with other people in the cockpit, strip off (or maybe you were already without clothes when swimming), and have a semi private alfresco shower back there. We even had shampoo, etc there in a cockpit locker.

Without the same wheel setup you could also just rig up a canvas screen aft, if modesty requires it.

We almost never used the interior showers (or the galley hob/oven for that matter - BBQ on deck) when cruising down island. Everything was done outdoors (often even including sleeping, much nicer, so the 6ft long flat space makes sense).

Food for thought anyway.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Andira

Hi, we are a family of 4 (kids are 9 and 11) looking for our first (and hopefully only) cruising boat. We found a boat that ticks a lot of boxes and would suit us well in many ways, but we are concerned the cockpit is too small/not safe or comfortable enough, which would make it a deal breaker.

The boat is an Embrun design by Maurice Amiet, which is based on Bernard Moitessier's Joshua. Steel blue water cruiser, which definitely will go where we want to go and the small cockpit allows for roomy cabins and a good sized salon in a relatively small boat, which we appreciate. On the other side there is really no way all four of us can hang out in the cockpit, which means less safety when all of us want to be on deck.

Any advice/thoughts/experiences would be very welcome.

The plan is to start with daysailing/weekend trips here at the west coast of Scotland, then take longer cruises to the Med, Scandinavia, Baltic until the kids and I can be away from the UK for more than 6 months at a time and then go voyaging full time for a few years with an emphasis on high latitude sailing, but also some time spent in the tropics.

All sailing yachts are tradeoffs. You correctly acknowledged the relationship of cockpit vs. cabin; one larger means the other is smaller. You have located a suitable boat but question the cockpit size; you consider it small. Keep that boat in mind and now go out and find an acceptable one with that large cockpit you desire and see if the smaller cabin is acceptable...compare the two boats. Maybe you just need a larger boat.

That said, with your emphasis in sailing High Latitudes, I would guess not all four of you are going to be in the cockpit for an extended period of time except in good weather, at anchor, or reasonable seas on a short leg. While passagemaking, some (probably at least two) will be below resting/sleeping/reading/studying/keeping warm while the remainder is on-deck. What watch plan do you have in mind?

Again, with tradeoffs being the rule, after identifying the large cockpit boat I would compare the two and give priority to the best sailing characteristics/specifications in selecting the winner because that is ultimately the most important to your family's safety.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Andira]

Originally Posted by MJH

Maybe you just need a larger boat.

That said, with your emphasis in sailing High Latitudes, I would guess not all four of you are going to be in the cockpit for an extended period of time except in good weather, at anchor, or reasonable seas on a short leg. While passagemaking, some (probably at least two) will be below resting/sleeping/reading/studying/keeping warm while the remainder is on-deck. What watch plan do you have in mind?

Again, with tradeoffs being the rule, after identifying the large cockpit boat I would compare the two and give priority to the best sailing characteristics/specifications in selecting the winner because that is ultimately the most important to your family's safety.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

A bigger boat would be great and we have seen several that would be perfect for us, but would also seriously overstretch our budget.

It'll be a while until we will be making longer passages, but currently the plan would be a 4 hour rotation for 2 1 adult/1 kid teams, maybe just the adults over night (although the kids are night owls ... We home educate and if I don't put my foot down so we can do day trips, they tend to gravitate towards staying up half the night and then sleeping in till noon even now ... I shudder to think what will happen in their teens )

Thank you everyone for your contributions, there is lots of food for thought.

Very good point about the tradeoffs, especially. We definitely lean towards being more comfortable down below. I can't see us taking cockpit showers let alone sleep outside for most of our cruising life. None of the big cockpit boats within our budget we have looked at were even remotely adequate below deck. I was just wondering if that cockpit is a bit too extreme.

[WindwardPrinces]

If you’re questioning it now, wait ‘till you actually have to live with it!

I’d say that’s not the boat for your needs. Before you can survive blue water, you have to convince your family they like being on the boat!

[Siberian Sea]

High lat sailing on a smaller vessel with a cockpit big enough for a family of four to hangout in......having spent most of my life on boats offshore in Alaska my vote is for a small highly protected cockpit even if it’s not comfortable for the family.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Andira

A bigger boat would be great and we have seen several that would be perfect for us, but would also seriously overstretch our budget.

It'll be a while until we will be making longer passages, but currently the plan would be a 4 hour rotation for 2 1 adult/1 kid teams, maybe just the adults over night (although the kids are night owls ... We home educate and if I don't put my foot down so we can do day trips, they tend to gravitate towards staying up half the night and then sleeping in till noon even now ... I shudder to think what will happen in their teens )

Thank you everyone for your contributions, there is lots of food for thought.

Very good point about the tradeoffs, especially. We definitely lean towards being more comfortable down below. I can't see us taking cockpit showers let alone sleep outside for most of our cruising life. None of the big cockpit boats within our budget we have looked at were even remotely adequate below deck. I was just wondering if that cockpit is a bit too extreme.

My family lost interest in sailing after a short while; it was just too much effort for them but it was my passion. The kids (twin boys) and I would sail later-on but their hearts were not in it.

My sons are now 51. Not long ago my second wife and I were anchored out and saw a group of kids learning to sail with an instructor on Orcus Island in the San Juan Islands. It convinced me that is the way kids should learn to sail...with other kids. They were all having a ball basically because kids want to be with other kids and just learn sailing along the way. Get the kids started early via an organized children's program. When it comes time for your boat they will be more ready for the transition.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Andira]

Originally Posted by MJH

It convinced me that is the way kids should learn to sail...with other kids. They were all having a ball basically because kids want to be with other kids and just learn sailing along the way. Get the kids started early via an organized children's program. When it comes time for your boat they will be more ready for the transition.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

Yes, that's the plan. The 11 year old did his lvl 1 dinghy course this summer and joined in the weekly club nights for the rest of the season, having a blast. The RYA insists on kids being 10 years old before they can do the courses, so the little one hadn't been able to join the local club, but he will next summer. We did a competent crew course together so they would have the experience of being on a big boat. The bigger one also wants to go on a preteen/teen yachting week next summer (again his brother is too young still)

[Fore and Aft]

Andira try and not be a helm hogger when you finally purchase your cruising yacht. It sounds like you have plenty of help onboard and the kids and mum will enjoy it so much more if they are involved.
Cheers

[roland stockham]

JMH2002, Just going from memory I think that the boat you just posted was the subject of a coroners inquest in France (that model not that boat) where the skipper was judged to have recklessly endangered the lives of the crew by attempting to cross the bay of Biscay in an unsuitable boat.

The purpose of the cockpit is to provide a sheltered and safe space for the watch crew to sail the boat from in any weather. It has to be able to do this. There is nothing that will exhaust crew faster than struggling to stay in place in a wide open cockpit with nothing to brace against. That said it should not be the only usable deck space. Any small boat that pushes you to stay in the cockpit when relaxing is going to feel cramped (my fav place is the seat in the bowsprit or laid out in the shade of a sail on the cabin top. With a well mannered boat, solid guard rails and w well designed deck layout there should be lots of other options for the kids to hang out and not risk being in the way of sailing operations. Also gives then some time not being so overlooked by parents!
My ideal would be a smallish stern or center cockpit plus a flush foredeck where you can set up a table and seats/loungers under an awning in habour but don't know if you can get that below about 42 ft. Failing that the other option would be a wide shallow cockpit plus a small deep section that has room for the helm and one person controlling lines that is reserved for watch crew only. I don't like off watch crew around active lines, to easy to get a foot or hand trapped when you are not paying attention.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Andira

It doesn't look like the picture I included actually posted. Trying as a file now.

Wow! That's ridiculously small - I've sailed on Cal 20's with a larger cockpit than that. You're going to need something big enough for a fold down cockpit table and a steering pulpit would also be handy so you can have your critical displays within reach. Yep I'd say this one is "no bueno" for what you need it for.

[Jim Cate]

I do hope that the boat in question has excellent dorades or other under way ventilation, 'cause with that cockpit design the washboards will need to be in most of the time... lacking a bridge deck to keep cockpit water from going below is a serious design fault IMO.

My personal feeling is that you will regret the small size of the cockpit far more than you will appreciate it's supposed safety advantages.

And a general comment about the dangers of big cockpits filling with water: under sea conditions severe enough to involve pooping, the cockpit will slosh out the majority of its contents from boat motion and heeling in short order, leaving the drains to deal with the relatively small amounts remaining. This is more true with aft cockpit designs, of course, but still applies to center cockpits.

I'm left wondering if you have spent much time at sea, either as an individual or as a family? The realities of passage making are often not clear until you've actually done a few, especially with children aboard, and your priorities might well change a bit with experience.

Jim

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Andira

It doesn't look like the picture I included actually posted. Trying as a file now.

I’ve just realised you can’t actually stand behind that wheel!

That’s a very strange setup.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by GILow

I’ve just realised you can’t actually stand behind that wheel!

That’s a very strange setup.

And in an environment where ideas and practices have been developed over many years experience, " strange" is not usually a good sign... IMO!

Jim

[KP44]

If you are doing high latitudes expeditions, that is far different from Med cruising and tropics cruising. Think about what you want. A steel boat makes sense for a Northwest Passage voyage over North America. But steel-boat maintenance is far greater than plastic boat. (FRP) Don't choose steel for the wrong situation. Think about your more likely cruises and situations.