Cockpit size for family blue water boat?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

JMH2002, Just going from memory I think that the boat you just posted was the subject of a coroners inquest in France (that model not that boat) where the skipper was judged to have recklessly endangered the lives of the crew by attempting to cross the bay of Biscay in an unsuitable boat.

There is always one...

The boat images I posted were for example purposes of what is possible when "taking it to the next level". I'm not suggesting (or not) this particular Beneteau, but instead using it is a useful example of a modern and practical cockpit and transom design.

Additionally I would suggest that a great many boats would fall into the 'unsuitable' category in the eyes of the coroner for crossing Biscay in the wrong weather. But then again, as others have posted, these generic type of designs (and other much worse boats) have also circumnavigated, so as the real experienced sailors know, this is more about the crew than the boat.

In any case, for further example purposes, the difference between the 'transom design' and the 'cockpit design' should also be noted.



In those example images it can be noted that when closed up for going to sea the cockpit is not that much different to many other modern production boats.

And in this particular design, there is also a wide open slot aft providing a substantial exit point if a big sea does happen to come onboard.

As I mentioned earlier, this is far larger than the cockpit drains normally fitted to most boats.

Quoting your points:

"The purpose of the cockpit is to provide a sheltered and safe space for the watch crew to sail the boat from in any weather."

- This design has a large dodger (which could also be a hard dodger), standing height, providing more than enough sheltered, safe space for watchkeeping.

The mainsheet is also raised up and out of the way and the cockpit is particularly uncluttered, clear, and tidy.

" There is nothing that will exhaust crew faster than struggling to stay in place in a wide open cockpit with nothing to brace against"

- This design has a cockpit table forward, breaking up the space and providing brace points when at sea.

"My ideal would be a smallish stern or center cockpit"

- That type of design is unpleasant, inconvenient, and possibly even unsafe when thinking about access to the water, the dinghy, etc when at anchor - which is 95% of the time for most cruisers (or when fishing at sea, or during a man overboard, etc, etc).

As a further example, I would not choose is a 35ft classic centre cockpit narrow stern ketch/yawl (oxymoron? shouldn't it be one or the other?) as a family blue water boat either.

It might be pretty in the eyes of the beholder, but that doesn't necessarily make it, or similar designs the right choice though.

I would always choose a wide, open, uncluttered, and spacious cockpit and transom instead, both for at sea as well as at anchor.

Because it is the main working and living area in all situations.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by KP44

If you are doing high latitudes expeditions, that is far different from Med cruising and tropics cruising. Think about what you want. A steel boat makes sense for a Northwest Passage voyage over North America. But steel-boat maintenance is far greater than plastic boat. (FRP) Don't choose steel for the wrong situation. Think about your more likely cruises and situations.

Yep, Cruising the North Atlantic is rather vague as it also encompasses the Caribbean Sea, the Azores, and Bermuda. Most cruising is done in the North Atlantic as the South Atlantic only has a couple of islands one could visit. The OP would be better served with a more conventional GRP center cockpit boat in the 40' range considering the two kids on board.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Andira

It doesn't look like the picture I included actually posted. Trying as a file now.

Maybe if you moved the beer keg somewhere else, you'd have more room for the kids!

[Fore and Aft]

Andira, Paul Howard must be chuckling about you being worried about the size of the cockpit and yacht. Just look at this book cover to see how small their yacht was. That books a good read and so is the second one.
Cheers
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...-srp1-_-title1

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Andira

A bigger boat would be great and we have seen several that would be perfect for us, but would also seriously overstretch our budget.



It'll be a while until we will be making longer passages, but currently the plan would be a 4 hour rotation for 2 1 adult/1 kid teams, maybe just the adults over night (although the kids are night owls ... We home educate and if I don't put my foot down so we can do day trips, they tend to gravitate towards staying up half the night and then sleeping in till noon even now ... I shudder to think what will happen in their teens )



Thank you everyone for your contributions, there is lots of food for thought.



Very good point about the tradeoffs, especially. We definitely lean towards being more comfortable down below. I can't see us taking cockpit showers let alone sleep outside for most of our cruising life. None of the big cockpit boats within our budget we have looked at were even remotely adequate below deck. I was just wondering if that cockpit is a bit too extreme.

Regarding kids and watches, don’t underestimate their abilities. I stood late evening and early morning watches when I was 10 while crossing the N Pacific to Hawaii and back from British Columbia. With just my two parents and I it meant they had one and two watches each respectively during the night, alternating each night.

Two years later we sailed to NZ and back over three years and I stood full watches at night. There’s no reason not to trust your kids. And note, it’s not just sailing but seamanship that you should want them (and you and your wife) to learn. The actual sailing is the least of it.

Have plenty of things to keep kids busy, as they’re generally not as good at introspection as adults. School work is good for passages. Lots of water toys for anchorages. Good long range communications for keeping in touch with other kids and kid boats.

Regarding the cockpit, it’s as important as other accommodation spaces. Too small is not great. Also consider the safety aspects, especially with kids who can’t reach or brace as far as adults.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Andira

It doesn't look like the picture I included actually posted. Trying as a file now.

Friend had a boat with a tiny cockpit for all of the safety argument. Sailed in the north Atlantic and a couple years ago had the boat clawed apart by an excavator because no one wants that anymore. Open transoms are the way to go. Water in and then exits almost as fast but also allows you somewhere to hide from the bad stuff as well as more and better things to grab when the wave hits. There are better ways of dealing with these concerns than those dreamed up half a century ago.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

You will be passage making 5% of the time and at anchor 95%. Get a cockpit good enough for the 5% and really good for the 95. . .

I hear people saying you spend practically all your time at anchor, especially in those Cat vs Mono conversations. I don't know sailors that sit at anchor for 20 days for 1 day sailing... Yes, there are live a boards that basically have house boats and don't move, but if you want to cruise and see the world, then here's the real numbers.



We (family of 4) cruised the Caribbean and Bahamas and I counted the days we sailed from July 2018 to June 2019. 155 out of 365 or 42% sailing and 58% days anchored. Much closer to 50/50 than 95/5 !!

[B23iL23]

Passage making not equal to day sailing. You don't need a really "secure" cockpit going for a couple of hours to the next bay. You also might sail every second day but it's short , in coastal waters and in good weather.



People usually want a small secure cockpit for their major passages when the weather gets snotty. I'm not a believer in that but each to their own.

Originally Posted by zstine

I hear people saying you spend practically all your time at anchor, especially in those Cat vs Mono conversations. I don't know sailors that sit at anchor for 20 days for 1 day sailing... Yes, there are live a boards that basically have house boats and don't move, but if you want to cruise and see the world, then here's the real numbers.



We (family of 4) cruised the Caribbean and Bahamas and I counted the days we sailed from July 2018 to June 2019. 155 out of 365 or 42% sailing and 58% days anchored. Much closer to 50/50 than 95/5 !!

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Andira

Any advice/thoughts/experiences would be very welcome.

Keep looking as it doesn't match your needs/wants or you wouldn't have asked.

BTW - don't let a boat forum pick a boat for YOU!!! I know when getting your first boat you worry a lot, but get the boat YOU like.

[Cheechako]

Get a big cockpit. I think the fear of a big one is over rated.

[Fore and Aft]

Zstine thats a great statistic, was your yacht called "Ants in your pants"? I know some cruisers who have not sailed that many days in three years.
Cheers

[Don C L]

The size of a cockpit should be directly proportional the average temperatures you’ll likely be experiencing.

[argonauta1]

Hi Folks especially Andira. We actually bought into the Moorings Charter Boat company, a Beneteau 440 (Moorings 445) left her in charter for 3.5 years then did a refit (about$100K) and circumnavigated. Turned out this thing was /is built like a beast and seriously sea worthy. Huge cockpit but only one wheel; glad about the single wheel especially when most of the time she was either on wind vane or autopilot. Never took a wave in the cockpit but in heavy weather we always closed off the companionway. Spent a lot of time with a twenty-foot wave rearing up at the stern but transom always rose with the wave. Granted the waves were not breaking or maybe just a bit?? My offer: look at the ex charter vessels. They are survivors!

[Davo1404]

That would have to be one of the worst centre cockpits that I have seen. As another post has said the wash boards would have to be in all the time in any seaway or risk getting water down below. No winches handy, no compass at the helm & no room to stand behind the wheel. Also the cockpit looks so deep that getting out of it at sea would be a great problem.