Family of 9 Wanting to Cruise

[CaptsWife]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

BarbarOssa:


Kenomac said (among other things): “Akprb, Your blog is an excellent read. I share your views, but expressing those same views here on this forum hasn't gained me many fans over the past five years, in fact just the opposite.”


Go listen to those people! Let's cut to the quick: I have no reason to doubt that you have the financial acumen to put something together that looks viable. We all know that the tough part is making the first million. After that you can't help making money. So go make that first million if you haven't already. You'll need it :-)


I have, forgive me for being so blunt, misgivings about whether you have the skippering skills to pull your dream out of a hat. Those misgivings are based on the tenor of the questions you have asked. Please accept that I, and all the others, have the welfare of you and your family in mind when we issue these cautions. Far too many people seem to think that buying a boat and going deep sea is much the same as buying a motor home and tearing off down Route 66. IT AIN'T!!!


Never forget, or if you don't already know it, then know now, that when you are out there with your family as crew YOU ARE ALONE! Never forget that in a boat the size that you are contemplating, and the size you need to accommodate the family, the forces generated by the rig are more than four times as great as the forces generated by TrentePied's rig PLUS an increment to allow for the fact that TP's Sail Area/Displacement Ratio is only 70% of what a competent “go anywhere boat” ought to have. Never forget that a wind blowing 30 knots, common enuff on passage, generates EIGHT times the power generated by a 15 knot wind, a wind forceful enuff to make many a sailing student sit in a puddle that ain't seawater! Are you physically strong enuff to handle such forces ALONE? So in a boat the size you need, you are talking about handling forces that are THIRTY times as great as any I need to deal with in TP!



So there you are. At night. In 30 knots of wind and you've left shortening sail too late because you haven't a lot of experience and didn't see it coming. You are the skipper. It's not your job to be the deckhand that has to go forward to take a reef. Your job, as skipper, is to keep the crew safe by keeping the ship safe. That is your ONLY job! Are you man enuff to send you children's mother forward to do the job? Is she able – strong enuff, and courageous enuff – to do it? Will she obey you? Or if she is the skipper, will YOU obey her? In this sort of situation we are not talking requests or suggestions. We are talking ORDERS! Would she be willing to leave her newborn swaying in a hammock in the fore-peak while she risks her life to do a job that is only necessary because YOU didn't tell off your crew betimes to do an essential, safety related job? Or will you have a mutiny on you hands and have to do a nasty job yourself while tempers are running so high that NOBODY aboard, including you, is entirely compos mentis? Would you ever be forgiven for precipitating such an incident?


You get the picture. And I'm not talking through my hat. Many years ago I sailed a mast overboard. In quite moderate weather. In a piddling little 30-footer. The danger of the mast in the water holing the boat, with a certain sinking being the consequence of that, was acute. Two students were totally useless being absolutely petrified with fear. Another student in the boat was a man of about 280 pounds. Had I dropped him overboard I would NOT have been able to get him back aboard. That man's wife, all 100 lbs of her, soaking wet as she was, spent three hours on deck with me, in the dark, in the wind and the rain, getting the rigging back aboard and lashed down securely. A truly gutsy woman. Not fearless, but gutsy. And obdient :-)!


So, BarbarOssa, having unloaded myself of that, I hope you will not be offended. I am not the shellback that many here are. You would do well to heed them :-) And know also that we are very happy to help you get started. If you want us to do that, you must ask questions. And not dismiss any answers that don't match any preconceptions you may have. Nor must you be afraid to ask “stupid” questions or feel slighted when in response to a question you get a blunt-spoken answer. We see it time and again: Anyone with a handsome bank account or a handsome credit rating can buy a boat. That's the easy part. Becoming a decent skipper, capable of handling boat and crew in all circumstances takes a lifetime.


So hang around. Ask away. You'll learn a lot :-)!


All the best


TP

Awesome post.

[Barbar0ssa]

So how does one start?

It sounds like the limits are money, skill, and family disposition.

Trying to make an educated guess about the money is making me come off as a know-it-all, but I gotta start somewhere. Once I have a number I can figure out how to get there. No idea how to get to a realistic number.

For skills, I am planning on starting on my six pack this summer. And I really like the feedback of a charter trip and day sailing to prove out both the skills and the family disposition before sinking in all the cash for a purchase.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Would you buy a house to vacation one Summer in it?
What is the plan after 6 months?
Where do you live?

Presumably, the OP thinks he can just put it up for sale and immediately get back what he owes on it after 6 months. He is in for a very rude awakening!

[akprb]

Well you got a good thread going Barbarossa!

I'll weigh in one more time.

We sold the big cat after 10 years of cruising and living abroad a few years ago.

A couple of years ago my oldest daughter suggested buying a more modest vessel and dear wife agreed. Read "hunter, really?"

Well that little 40 footer has been more fun and it's worked out as a hybrid I mentioned earlier. I get to go sailing with one kid for 3-4 weeks, back to AK for some adventures then another 3-4 weeks with the other.

As a Dad this time has been amazing. Truth is our youngest doesn't remember much from those "magic years". We're leaving again in two weeks, she and I, to deliver Ohana back to Florida from Georgetown. 3 weeks, one on one, magic.

This may be a very workable model for you. I've also found that after 3 months cruising full time I'm ready for something different. Many think "a year" but a year onboard gets old, trust me, especially if on a tight budget.

The other thing we've done and you may enjoy and is well within your budget is "land yachting" (RVs).

We've owned 5 over the years (all named BURT, big ugly rolling turd), always had a blast, made money on all but one of them (buy somewhere low season and sell somewhere high season) and even the loser was just a few grand. Couldn't rent for that.

Get an old monster Prevost, pack the gang in and head out! You'll learn about all the same systems a boat has at 1/2 the cost and a quarter the discomfort! Bonus, when the brood gets board or annoying the can go run!

All the best!

[SV.Maverick]

Originally Posted by Barbar0ssa

So how does one start?

It sounds like the limits are money, skill, and family disposition.

Trying to make an educated guess about the money is making me come off as a know-it-all, but I gotta start somewhere. Once I have a number I can figure out how to get there. No idea how to get to a realistic number.

For skills, I am planning on starting on my six pack this summer. And I really like the feedback of a charter trip and day sailing to prove out both the skills and the family disposition before sinking in all the cash for a purchase.

I'm not sure if you have said but what part of the country are you in? If your near water join the local sailing club. There are a few of them in most areas I have been at. Most of the time they are free to join have weekly races that get you out there on the water. You will also meet members who have larger boats this will give you an opportunity to learn to sail. The question should be asked do you know how to sail at this time? Local sailing clubs may be your best place to start and at least get on the water.

The money issue is going to always be the major driving factor of if your plan has a chance so that's why people bring up $ so much. What most people know is that if you spend 100k on the boat odds are you'll need another 40-50k to spend on the boat before she leaves the slip especially given you crew makeup. Also not sure what type of job you have but if at all possible trying to find work at a marina or ship yard would teach you invaluable stuff that could save you lots of labor $ down the road on repairs.

I hope this works out for you as you know between crew size and lack of funds and not knowing much about boats your starting a little behind the 8 ball.

I'll just throw this out as a possibility, if your sure you only wanted to do this for 6 mos get on the forms on here and Facebook and offer your little pile of 30-40k for a 6 month adventure on someone else's boat. I have met many low on funds individuals and couples with large boats that might bite at squeezing your crew aboard for 6 mos and it might could itch both of your scratches so to speak.

[Barbar0ssa]

Originally Posted by SV.Maverick

I'll just throw this out as a possibility, if your sure you only wanted to do this for 6 mos get on the forms on here and Facebook and offer your little pile of 30-40k for a 6 month adventure on someone else's boat. I have met many low on funds individuals and couples with large boats that might bite at squeezing your crew aboard for 6 mos and it might could itch both of your scratches so to speak.

That is a very creative idea!

I'm a programmer in Cleveland and have 3 friends who own sailboats who I'll be going on short trips with. There is a sailing school about an hour away where I can pursue my 6 pack.

[Barbar0ssa]

I'll definitely look into a sailing club.

[TrentePieds]

@ #47


I'm not entirely sure that #47 was a follow-up to mine, but just in case :-)


You are off to a very good start. You've taken the blunt words from me and one or two others with good grace and humour :-)


There is a tried and true method for getting off to a good start and doing the “six-pack” is one of the essentials. Being a Canadian, I'm not completely aware of what the “six-pack” entails, but in my youth, before regulation became the curse of the seafaring man, I taught professionally the fundamentals of coastal cruising. Some of it was a slap-dash 4 x 3 hours basic course on Cal 20s, followed by as many weekends as a student was willing to pay for in 27 or 30 foot boats. But the good stuff was 7 or 10 day “croose'n'learn”s on a 27 ton ketch designed by the Dean of West Coast Yacht Designers, William Garden. [sidebar: I think our friend “Zeahag” has a forty-odd foot version of the same hull and rig, so maybe she'll pipe up :-)]


When my Alma Mater was brand new I started its sailing club and built two Enterprise dinghies in my basement, to complement the “frozen snot” Enterprise we bought. I taught, I don't recall how many, maybe a coupla hundred students, the basics of dinghy sailing.


So I have fairly firm opinions ;-)


There is an ineluctable truth of seafaring that may be stated as follows: In small boats things happen, when the fit hits the shan, with great rapidity, but they are seldom serious. I big boats things happen, when SHF, with great rapidity. AND they are ALWAYS serious, and to stop the inevitable progression from bad to worse requires a great deal of experience married to a singular bloodymindedness and sometimes to physical strength.


It is advisable, therefore, to start in SMALL boats – dinghies preferably – and work up by stages. There are many who have started in 40-odd foot boats and got away with it, but IMO that's doing things the hard way. Fore-handedness is the sailorman's stock in trade, and you learn that in small boats because they are simple enuff that the untutored landsman's mind can perceive and process what the boat, the sea and the weather is doing. Acute situational awareness is a sine qua non of good skippers,and you cannot develop that in a ship so complex that as a lubber you only have a vague clue as to what is going on around you, and as to whether some aspect of it may portend trouble or even disaster.


You get the drift of what I'm saying. There has been no indication in your posts as to where you are located – other than that you are an American. Almost anywhere in America where there is any kinda puddle of water, you will find a sailing club. Go join one. Buy a dinghy, which you can do for a coupla thou, and sail it off the beach (or in a lake). When the dinghy can teach you no more, flog it. You'll get as much for it as you paid for it, likely enuff, and you step up to something like a Cal 20 which is really no more than a biggish dinghy with a deck and a “cuddy cabin”. Again we are talking a coupla grand. A Cal 20 is still small enuff that, if you must, you can take it home with you on a trailer, thereby saving five grand a year in moorage. There are dozens of such designs. When the glorified dinghy can teach you no more, step up to a small coastal cruiser. Or team up with a sailing club member who needs a crew. 26 and 27 footers are good, e.g. Columbia 26 and Mirage 27. Personally, I would steer clear of Catalina 27s for reasons we can discuss some other day when you've got the fundamentals of yacht design under your belt :-). Beyond that, there are 30 footers – like TrentePieds - commodious enuff to permit man and maid to cruise for weeks, even months, at a time. Although not with seven kiddies and a Labrador Retriever aboard as well :-) At 30 feet your focus will shift from basic boat handling to ship's husbandry. Thirty feet is, IMO, the “sweet spot” for a great number of people, myself included, where you get the best trade off between accommodation and economy, between joyous freedom and abject slavery :-)


TP.

[JPA Cate]

BarbarOssa,

I think it may help to consider the number of berths you'll need, rather than cabins... One of the other women suggested 3 to a double bunk, and it was certainly common in years gone by that boys share one bunk, girls another, and parents another. Too many, and some slept on the floor. Also slept together to share warmth. Kids stacked in like cord wood, but normal for them. So, start now, to accustom them to that form of sleep and also lack of personal space. Then, it will seem normal, when extended to a boat. What I'm getting at here, is that what you need in terms of a boat, may need to have only 3 cabins. In monohulls, this is usually a v-berth and two berths in the stern. Some may have a bosun's berth or a pilot berth. Your biggest logistical problems will be lack of privacy, and stores, both food and water, and at some point, I think you'll be trading berths for storage.

The other really big issue is what your wife wants and can physically do. Imho, if there're funds for it, I'd really suggest a nanny, to deal with education, and care-taking, and that will leave your wife free as crew, watch on watch with you. Is she up to it? She, too, will need sailing skills. [and if no nanny, then is she up to the home schooling, all the levels, plus wifely jobs, and you have to arrange for crew?] Does she want to do it? Has she sailing skills? How do you plan to help her make it fun for her if she is to bear the burden of both childcare and husband-care? IME, not all women are really interested in sailing, they want to avoid the discomforts involved.

What you are talking about doing (so far, on this thread) is an uncommon action, particularly for a large family anticipating education costs for 7 children. It's way outside the norm for professionals in the US. It can be a lonely space to occupy. There will, of course, be pluses, but they are for the moment, fantasy. While there are other cruisers out there with children on their boats, you will be in an extra minority, due to the size of your family. It would be a mistake for you to simply assume it would all be okay, as it might not be, for many, many women.

Another hurdle for you will be the balance you find you have to strike between gainful employment and boat projects. There are only so many hours in a day, and you'll be paying marine workers to do what you cannot. Average costs about $100/hr; unlikely to complete job on time. So it mounts up, and the only real defense is to teach yourself a whole lot of jobs, while you're working outside the home, and inside the home.

I am not saying this cannot be done, only that it will involve sacrifices you've not yet thought of. I have to agree with the others that you're unlikely to find financing on a used boat that will meet your needs, without some kind of fairly liquid collateral.

One thing that could help is getting you and your wife, and all the kids that are old enough, active in dinghy sailing, start the "loving sailing and the water" gig going.

Ann

[Tkeeth]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

BarbarOssa:


Kenomac said (among other things): “Akprb, Your blog is an excellent read. I share your views, but expressing those same views here on this forum hasn't gained me many fans over the past five years, in fact just the opposite.”


Go listen to those people! Let's cut to the quick: I have no reason to doubt that you have the financial acumen to put something together that looks viable. We all know that the tough part is making the first million. After that you can't help making money. So go make that first million if you haven't already. You'll need it :-)


I have, forgive me for being so blunt, misgivings about whether you have the skippering skills to pull your dream out of a hat. Those misgivings are based on the tenor of the questions you have asked. Please accept that I, and all the others, have the welfare of you and your family in mind when we issue these cautions. Far too many people seem to think that buying a boat and going deep sea is much the same as buying a motor home and tearing off down Route 66. IT AIN'T!!!


Never forget, or if you don't already know it, then know now, that when you are out there with your family as crew YOU ARE ALONE! Never forget that in a boat the size that you are contemplating, and the size you need to accommodate the family, the forces generated by the rig are more than four times as great as the forces generated by TrentePied's rig PLUS an increment to allow for the fact that TP's Sail Area/Displacement Ratio is only 70% of what a competent “go anywhere boat” ought to have. Never forget that a wind blowing 30 knots, common enuff on passage, generates EIGHT times the power generated by a 15 knot wind, a wind forceful enuff to make many a sailing student sit in a puddle that ain't seawater! Are you physically strong enuff to handle such forces ALONE? So in a boat the size you need, you are talking about handling forces that are THIRTY times as great as any I need to deal with in TP!



So there you are. At night. In 30 knots of wind and you've left shortening sail too late because you haven't a lot of experience and didn't see it coming. You are the skipper. It's not your job to be the deckhand that has to go forward to take a reef. Your job, as skipper, is to keep the crew safe by keeping the ship safe. That is your ONLY job! Are you man enuff to send you children's mother forward to do the job? Is she able – strong enuff, and courageous enuff – to do it? Will she obey you? Or if she is the skipper, will YOU obey her? In this sort of situation we are not talking requests or suggestions. We are talking ORDERS! Would she be willing to leave her newborn swaying in a hammock in the fore-peak while she risks her life to do a job that is only necessary because YOU didn't tell off your crew betimes to do an essential, safety related job? Or will you have a mutiny on you hands and have to do a nasty job yourself while tempers are running so high that NOBODY aboard, including you, is entirely compos mentis? Would you ever be forgiven for precipitating such an incident?


You get the picture. And I'm not talking through my hat. Many years ago I sailed a mast overboard. In quite moderate weather. In a piddling little 30-footer. The danger of the mast in the water holing the boat, with a certain sinking being the consequence of that, was acute. Two students were totally useless being absolutely petrified with fear. Another student in the boat was a man of about 280 pounds. Had I dropped him overboard I would NOT have been able to get him back aboard. That man's wife, all 100 lbs of her, soaking wet as she was, spent three hours on deck with me, in the dark, in the wind and the rain, getting the rigging back aboard and lashed down securely. A truly gutsy woman. Not fearless, but gutsy. And obdient :-)!


So, BarbarOssa, having unloaded myself of that, I hope you will not be offended. I am not the shellback that many here are. You would do well to heed them :-) And know also that we are very happy to help you get started. If you want us to do that, you must ask questions. And not dismiss any answers that don't match any preconceptions you may have. Nor must you be afraid to ask “stupid” questions or feel slighted when in response to a question you get a blunt-spoken answer. We see it time and again: Anyone with a handsome bank account or a handsome credit rating can buy a boat. That's the easy part. Becoming a decent skipper, capable of handling boat and crew in all circumstances takes a lifetime.


So hang around. Ask away. You'll learn a lot :-)!


All the best


TP

Excellently put. The images you paint about being in the storm and what is happening are not unique and that is the hardest thing for others to believe. We travel with less than professional crew a lot of times and of course I am not an experienced captain. My wife, gutsy as she is, is not mechanical and there is a point where it's me alone trying to figure out how to fix it or make it work, or just make it so it won't kill you. By this time she is pissed at my "tone" which does allow for silent reflecting once the ordeal has passed. My goal is to become an experienced captain who has less ordeals because of better planning and execution. That isn't something that happens quickly. That 20K may be just enough for a few classes and a charter so at least you have an idea what your getting into.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Barbar0ssa

So how does one start?

It sounds like the limits are money, skill, and family disposition.

Trying to make an educated guess about the money is making me come off as a know-it-all, but I gotta start somewhere. Once I have a number I can figure out how to get there. No idea how to get to a realistic number.

For skills, I am planning on starting on my six pack this summer. And I really like the feedback of a charter trip and day sailing to prove out both the skills and the family disposition before sinking in all the cash for a purchase.

I see a ton of red flags in your posts. I think the skill and family disposition while serious considerations may be the easy part.

You are saying you will have around $26k for the boat and will finance a $100k boat.
- How will you make the payments after the first 6 months?
- Do you have any income to show the bank during the 6 months and beyond? To finance, they typically expect you to be gainfully employed and/or have significant assets. Unless you lie to them, they will be very hesitant to hand over $80k to an unemployed guy who is about to leave the country.
- You can find a 30' $100k boat that is ready to go and suitable for a couple maybe even with a kid or two. A boat suitable for 9 at $100k is likely going to need a lot of work (easily in the tens of thousands and your lack of experience makes it more likely you will miss something major and more likely in the end you have to pay someone to do the work).
- Are you expecting to sell the boat at the end of 6 months? What if it takes a year to sell? In addition to monthly payments, you have the care and feeding of the boat which can easily be $500 or more per month. How much of a loss can you absorb financially?
- What about purchase related costs? Flying down to see a boat an easily burn a couple grand. Surveyor, another $6-800. Documentation & paperwork can be a few hundred. Do you have to pay sales tax? 6% on $100k boat is another $6k. This could easily be another $8-10k just to get the boat purchased.

You can tell us to only look at one small aspect of the cost but that would be doing you a disservice.

A thought: How set are you on the Caribbean? If the goal is an adventure, what about picking up a house boat and taking it down the river system? Finding a houseboat with the kind of space you will need is much more viable and being on the river system, you don't need as much storage as shore side facilities will be much more available. Still going to be tight given the financials you have indicated but it would likely cut your costs drastically compared to an ocean capable boat.

[Barbar0ssa]

Please take this as a stab at an answer, not a know-it-all claim. You guys have given me a lot more to think about so this plan is by no means concrete. At this point, a travel trailer might be one of our early proofs of concept.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

- How will you make the payments after the first 6 months?

After the first 6 months, it will be back to programming. Most likely at my same position at the same pay rate and the same $2k extra per month that can carry the boat until I either sell it or use it for future adventures.

- Do you have any income to show the bank during the 6 months and beyond? To finance, they typically expect you to be gainfully employed and/or have significant assets. Unless you lie to them, they will be very hesitant to hand over $80k to an unemployed guy who is about to leave the country.

The plan was to obtain financing while employed and plan a leave of absence with savings to cover the financing for that period. I am not going to be lying to anyone.

- You can find a 30' $100k boat that is ready to go and suitable for a couple maybe even with a kid or two. A boat suitable for 9 at $100k is likely going to need a lot of work (easily in the tens of thousands and your lack of experience makes it more likely you will miss something major and more likely in the end you have to pay someone to do the work).

How can you determine if a boat is ready to go or not?

My wife and I have a dream boat (at least as close as we can get from pictures with no actual experience) that is out of our price range.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/58034

But then again, a $150,000 boat that is really ready to go is more affordable than a $100,000 boat that needs thousands to get ready - assuming I can get financing.

Neither matter if I can't find a way to finance it.

- What about purchase related costs? Flying down to see a boat an easily burn a couple grand. Surveyor, another $6-800. Documentation & paperwork can be a few hundred. Do you have to pay sales tax? 6% on $100k boat is another $6k. This could easily be another $8-10k just to get the boat purchased.

You can tell us to only look at one small aspect of the cost but that would be doing you a disservice.

I definitely want to learn what I don't know. Earlier, I just wanted to assure people that we aren't in danger of starving or destroying our financial future. I really want realistic expectations of costs, so thank you for giving me some idea of what to expect.

A thought: How set are you on the Caribbean? If the goal is an adventure, what about picking up a house boat and taking it down the river system? Finding a houseboat with the kind of space you will need is much more viable and being on the river system, you don't need as much storage as shore side facilities will be much more available. Still going to be tight given the financials you have indicated but it would likely cut your costs drastically compared to an ocean capable boat.

I'll have to look into this as well.

[valhalla360]

The travel trailer is a good option. I'm the youngest of 10 and growing up we did monthly long summer trips along with shorter trips. It worked fairly well as you could take along a couple tents and then a couple could sleep in the van. Plus since you can just walk out of the RV, you aren't trapped.

Dingy for a family of 9? Probably need at least 2 if you are going to anchor out most of the time (if not, factor in marina costs).

[Kenomac]

You do realize that most people work their way up to having something over 50ft? Actually, I've never heard of anyone piling 2 big people and seven little people onto a 50ft "starter sailboat" and heading off into the sunset.

Do you plan to tell your insurance company about this? BTW: your misadventure is going to cost way more than you think, and I'm guessing that you don't have the disposable income that's necessary. $2k per month ain't nothin' when it comes to owning and properly maintaining a 50+ foot boat with nine people aboard.

Come to think of it, I seriously doubt if a country like Italy or Spain would even grant your family entrance at the border if the immigration people knew of your plans, population and budget... and that's the truth.

[Tkeeth]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You do realize that most people work their way up to having something over 50ft? Actually, I've never heard of anyone piling 2 big people and seven little people onto a 50ft "starter sailboat" and heading off into the sunset.

Do you plan to tell your insurance company about this?

I don't think most understand the concept that financing, and insurance on a boat is not like any other item. Not owning one before prevents you from owning one, especially when you jump over about 34 ft.