Family of 9 Wanting to Cruise

[leboyd]

Financing will not be a problem. All you need to do is create a YouTube/Patreon channel and film everything - especially from Day 1. Even on a "perfect" day, with no mistakes, with nine people there's no way there won't be some very funny things that happen. If any of you have a TV/extrovert personality, you will have many subscribers.

Start off with the ASA courses (take everyone in the family who can swim). Then, make sure you take *all* the children when you go boat shopping (how else will you know if they all will actually fit?).

Remember Eight is Enough? That's what I'm thinking.

But seriously, the good news is that because you can save $2k a month, you could have a lot of money saved by the time you buy a boat.

Here's my advice:
1. Don't lose your dream!
2. Don't plan on going in 6 months, probably even 1 year.
3. If you don't know how people get in and out of a sailboat, you're going to be learning a lot - A WHOLE LOT. That can actually be an advantage. If you find a good instructor (got to be at least one in Cleveland), you'll learn correctly from the start.
4. I was semi-serious about everyone taking the ASA courses. Best bet is to charter the boat and hire the captain for the courses. Take everyone... As was pointed out, the more who know how to sail, the better off everyone will be. I see two schools in Cleveland area.
5. I love the RV practice run idea. Odds of dying are significantly lower than in a boat in the middle of Lake Erie.
6. Don't lose your Dream!

It's not going to be easy - you already know how it's not easy with a large family on land, so you have some experience here. But it could be a great family experience.

But if you cast off too soon, in the best case your family will have a horrible memory instead of the dream you have.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by leboyd

Financing will not be a problem. All you need to do is create a YouTube/Patreon channel and film everything - especially from Day 1. Even on a "perfect" day, with no mistakes, with nine people there's no way there won't be some very funny things that happen. If any of you have a TV/extrovert personality, you will have many subscribers.

Start off with the ASA courses (take everyone in the family who can swim). Then, make sure you take *all* the children when you go boat shopping (how else will you know if they all will actually fit?).

Remember Eight is Enough? That's what I'm thinking.

But seriously, the good news is that because you can save $2k a month, you could have a lot of money saved by the time you buy a boat.

Here's my advice:
1. Don't lose your dream!
2. Don't plan on going in 6 months, probably even 1 year.
3. If you don't know how people get in and out of a sailboat, you're going to be learning a lot - A WHOLE LOT. That can actually be an advantage. If you find a good instructor (got to be at least one in Cleveland), you'll learn correctly from the start.
4. I was semi-serious about everyone taking the ASA courses. Best bet is to charter the boat and hire the captain for the courses. Take everyone... As was pointed out, the more who know how to sail, the better off everyone will be. I see two schools in Cleveland area.
5. I love the RV practice run idea. Odds of dying are significantly lower than in a boat in the middle of Lake Erie.
6. Don't lose your Dream!

It's not going to be easy - you already know how it's not easy with a large family on land, so you have some experience here. But it could be a great family experience.

But if you cast off too soon, in the best case your family will have a horrible memory instead of the dream you have.

Where is he going to find a charter captain willing to take on the responsibility of having seven very young kids onboard, at a price he can afford?

Another pipe dream IMHO.

[Barbar0ssa]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Come to think of it, I seriously doubt if a country like Italy or Spain would even grant your family entrance at the boarder if the immigration people knew of your plans, population and budget... and that's the truth.

Now that is a scary scenario. If I showed up at port in Italy with a healthy and happy family and said I wanted to visit for say a month and had $4k in the bank for that month, you don't think they'd grant access? Is this a real risk?

I don't know if I'm missing something or not here, but on land, my family costs ~ $3k/mo including the house we aren't planning to sell. On the water, I was trying to estimate boat related costs and add them to that $3k/mo. The $2k number was my current savings rate towards the trip, not my estimated monthly budget.

If you are right, and the costs of the boat itself are more than $2k/mo, then I definitely have some more saving to do.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Barbar0ssa

Now that is a scary scenario. If I showed up at port in Italy with a healthy and happy family and said I wanted to visit for say a month and had $4k in the bank for that month, you don't think they'd grant access? Is this a real risk?

I don't know if I'm missing something or not here, but on land, my family costs ~ $3k/mo including the house we aren't planning to sell. On the water, I was trying to estimate boat related costs and add them to that $3k/mo. The $2k number was my current savings rate towards the trip, not my estimated monthly budget.

If you are right, and the costs of the boat itself are more than $2k/mo, then I definitely have some more saving to do.

Two people with seven small kids arriving on a boat would definitely raise some immigration eyebrows at the border.

Wait a minute.... you're now saying that you make only $60k per year, have nine family members and you want to take a six month vacation after you buy (and somehow finance) a fifty foot yacht?

[leboyd]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Where is he going to find a charter captain willing to take on the responsibility of having seven very young kids onboard, at a price he can afford?

Another pipe dream IMHO.

Hmm... I might not have been clear (which is not uncommon). The chartering/captain recommendation was for him, his wife and any of the older kids who can swim. If he has two or three nine years old or older (we know he has a 12 year old), I think he could find a captain here in the Houston area that would take them on for training (two come to mind right now - no not me, as i'm not a captain). I would think he could find someone in Cleveland. I've seen adults act worse on sailboats (or any kind of boat) than nine/ten year olds.

But I would take all or most of them when looking at a boat when they are ready to buy.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by leboyd

Start off with the ASA courses (take everyone in the family who can swim). Then, make sure you take *all* the children when you go boat shopping (how else will you know if they all will actually fit?).


4. I was semi-serious about everyone taking the ASA courses. Best bet is to charter the boat and hire the captain for the courses. Take everyone... As was pointed out, the more who know how to sail, the better off everyone will be. I see two schools in Cleveland area.

That could be a problem. Most ASA guys will have a 6-pack license...a family of 9 exceed the number they can take out.

PS: Don't worry about entering the EU countries (not that it was your plan anyway). They may check the passports a little more closely but as US citizens, you get 90 days out of the last 180 pretty much automatically unless they can demonstrate an issue. It may take a little longer for paperwork but in a lot of countries, they are very family oriented and kids could actually be a plus to help smooth things over.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You do realize that most people work their way up to having something over 50ft? Actually, I've never heard of anyone piling 2 big people and seven little people onto a 50ft "starter sailboat" and heading off into the sunset.

Do you plan to tell your insurance company about this? BTW: your misadventure is going to cost way more than you think, and I'm guessing that you don't have the disposable income that's necessary. $2k per month ain't nothin' when it comes to owning and properly maintaining a 50+ foot boat with nine people aboard.

Come to think of it, I seriously doubt if a country like Italy or Spain would even grant your family entrance at the border if the immigration people knew of your plans, population and budget... and that's the truth.

The Zatara people did pretty much that with 2 adults plus 4 children on a Beneteau 55. This is them.

https://sailingzatara.com/videos/

So far they have made it through Panama and headed for Ecuador. I am a little concerned about how fast they are spending money but otherwise things seem OK.

[Tkeeth]

Originally Posted by savoir

The Zatara people did pretty much that with 2 adults plus 4 children on a Beneteau 55. This is them.

https://sailingzatara.com/videos/

So far they have made it through Panama and headed for Ecuador. I am a little concerned about how fast they are spending money but otherwise things seem OK.

Lotsa $$ and no babies. I thought the part about freaking out because the bow thruster wasn't working so "how is he going to park the boat?" was funny.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by savoir

The Zatara people did pretty much that with 2 adults plus 4 children on a Beneteau 55. This is them.

https://sailingzatara.com/videos/

So far they have made it through Panama and headed for Ecuador. I am a little concerned about how fast they are spending money but otherwise things seem OK.

But this fellow just told us he makes $60k per year. I can't even see how it's possible to feed, clothe, educate, take care of healthcare needs, transportation, utilities and put a roof over the heads of nine people on only $60k per year in the US... let alone purchase a fifty foot sailboat (financed) and take six months off.

Sorry, but it's not possible.

[Tkeeth]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

But this fellow just told us he makes $60k per year. I can't even see how it's possible to feed, clothe, educate, take care of healthcare needs, transportation, utilities and put a roof over the heads of nine people on only $60k per year in the US... let alone purchase a fifty foot sailboat (financed) and take six months off.

Sorry, but it's not possible.

Yeah, if he had $500K I'd say go for it! $20k is a bottom job and a new main.

[Rudderless]

Here's a post that will make me unpopular with some.

You know, Bar, you've got to be one of the nicest, most patient men out there. You've been constantly crapped on in this thread, had your integrity, intelligence, capability and financial wherewithal repeatedly called into question when all you've done is admit that you've got a lot to learn and expressed interest in doing so, and you've taken it all with incredible grace.

There's been an awful lot of jumping to conclusions on this thread and some nasty accusations as a result. So, in the true spirit of how this thread has gone, I'm going to pile on with some assumptions of my own.

1. You're pretty smart, based on your job as a programmer.
2. You're no stranger to adversity and you and your wife make a great team. How else can you raise 7 kids, handling all that that entails, and still be together.
3. You love your family, why else would you fill your house with so much love and try to give your kids an incredible experience like cruising.
4. You're doing well financially and smart with your money. If you weren't, you wouldn't be able to save $2k a month on top of all the expenses required to keep a family of 9 going on, and I'm going to make an assumption here, just one income. If your wife has actually worked in the last 12 years on top of being pregnant 7 times and having 7 infants, she's probably a super hero. Actually, even if she hasn't worked a day (outside the home) in the last 12 years, she IS a superhero.
5. Your kids aren't spoiled and know how to work and work together. Any family I've ever known with that many kids has needed those kids to pitch in and help at times.
6. You aren't impulsive. Again, programming indicates a logical mind, I don't think you CAN be impulsive when you've got to accommodate 8 other people in your plans, and you've come on here looking to gain the knowledge to start you on this adventure the right way. Not knowing how to do that doesn't make you an idiot, it just means you are new to this. Wanting to get going quickly doesn't mean you're impulsive or reckless, rather that you have underestimated what you need to know, which isn't at all surprising given that many people have just bought a boat and started sailing, and some of them have been successful.
7. You are a responsible adult. If you weren't you may have bailed on your family or had your kids removed from the home. Unless you've actually had 12 kids and 5 of them were taken by child services, this isn't the case, and I'm not going to assume it is.
8. Your family is already used to close quarters and working with/around each other. Again, I can't imagine a family of 9 being any other way. My mom comes from a family of 8 kids that lived and, when I visited Holland, I took the time to go find the old family farm. It was 65'x300' with what we'd call a war home; 20x20 with 2 dormers in the attic. Two rooms in the attic, 4 boys in one, 4 girls in the other, my grandparents in a bedroom downstairs and, when my mom lived there, there weren't even dormers. If you don't expect to live like people WANT to live these days, you can put up with an awful lot, especially for 6 months in the caribbean.

I'm certainly not the guy to ask what you need to do this, but you have stated that any financials you've brought up were solely to do with the boat purchase, outfitting and ongoing costs. You have said, on more than one post, that your other financial affairs aren't at issue. You've also said that you won't be lying to get financing, and I'm going to assume that means you also aren't interested in lying about insurance. Again, this goes back to you being intelligent. I don't know why people assume that you're a liar.

The internet is great; you can get so much information and even so much help, but I've seen a similar theme come up on many forums across many different interests over the years. If you buy a sport bike without taking all the courses and working your way up from a moped, you're going to die. If you don't take all the canoeing classes, aren't an emerge doctor, and haven't hired an outfitter to take you on several guided trips, you'll die. If you distill alcohol for consumption, you're going to die. Hell, you'll die if you homebrew. Want to save money by re-wiring your house, dead. You need to be a qualified electrician with 20 years experience to even think about it. Want to do your own brakes, you're killing yourself and untold millions of pedestrians. Never farmed but you want to get some pigs and a cow? You're going to fail and you should be jailed for animal cruelty before you even start. Let's not even THINK about ultralights. Can these things kill you, absolutely. Will they, the odds are very much against it. Some people sincerely want you to be safe and are trying to be helpful, but nobody can determine if you're going to kill yourself just by reading, and reading into, a few posts on the internet. People seem to forget that just because you don't know much about one topic, it doesn't mean that you don't know lots about many other things. This is particularly germane for cruising: you already have a job that lends itself well to doing onboard, you may know everything there is to know about diesel engines, you could be a HAM operator, and you also may have been asked by NASA to submit a proposal to equip the Mars rover, we just don't know. There are also those who, for whatever reason, just crap on newbies. Maybe it makes them feel their accomplishments are that much greater if they make it seem so much harder than it is. Maybe they crap on the idea of a bigger boat just because they're jealous that they can't have one. Is a bigger boat more expensive and harder to handle, absolutely, but you've got 7 kids and a Cape Dory 25 just isn't going to cut it for you unless you're planning to use your kids as an outrigger.

Here's what I know. This is something that you can do. It may take longer to get there than you'd hoped, but it's doable. It may take more money, too, probably will, but it's doable. Is there a chance that you can go buy a 50' boat and learn to handle it by being cautious and getting help where you can? Yep. The odds may be close to 5% or closer to 80%, but it all comes down to you and your family and how you choose to proceed. There are many people who have just bought a boat and started sailing. Just because a poster wouldn't take that route doesn't mean it can't be done. There are people here who will tell you that you can cruise for $1000 a month (maybe not YOU with 7 kids), but there are many who tell you that you MUST have $3500+ a month to even consider it. Are the people who say they are doing it for $1k lying, or just doing it differently. There are people on youtube that have bought boats for peanuts and sailed them without any experience at all. I wouldn't do what they've done, but it's their life, their responsibility, and their prerogative. Why crap on it if it works for them.

Like a lot of things I've seen over the years, and as has been mentioned here many times, most people lose their ambition pretty quickly. Anything you want to do that relies on your abilities is hard. You'll either want to keep at it to reach your goal, or you'll decide it's not really worth it after all and move on. That's not failure, that's just a realization that the effort isn't worth the reward to you, though it may be to others.

So, given all my assumptions, here's my advice. Remember, I'm an internet expert I'd try to get some classes for you and your wife and maybe your older kids on a cruising boat of some kind. I might also spend some time in small boats. I don't know that I'd bother with camping, though I personally love it and can see why it was suggested, but that'll put you off by a year. Once you've got some experience, see if you can take most or all of the family on a 1-2 night boat trip, even if you never leave the dock, just to see how that goes. Re-evaluate constantly. A week long charter would be a great next step, then who knows.

Something I didn't see mentioned here was hiring a captain/crew member. Tough, I know, given you've already got 9 people to accommodate, but having even one person on board who has experience for at least the first month will smooth out the learning curve and teach you a lot.

Regardless of where you go from here, I wish you all the best. If you ever get up to the Toronto area, let me know and we'll see if we can grab a beverage of your choice.

Mark

[Rudderless]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

But this fellow just told us he makes $60k per year. I can't even see how it's possible to feed, clothe, educate, take care of healthcare needs, transportation, utilities and put a roof over the heads of nine people on only $60k per year in the US... let alone purchase a fifty foot sailboat (financed) and take six months off.

Sorry, but it's not possible.

Sometimes math is hard. He didn't tell you that me makes $60k a year, he said that his living costs are $3k/mo and he saves an additional $2k/mo towards this trip. So, his AFTER TAX income is at least $60k/year, but that doesn't mean that he also isn't making 401k contributions, health plan savings, or additional retirement savings. What's his gross income? I don't know and neither do you. We all get that you couldn't possibly feed, clothe, educate, take care of healthcare needs, transportation, utilities and put a roof over the heads of nine people on only $60k per year in the US but, unless you're actually both the same person, he's not you. All you really know is that it's not possible for YOU.

As for getting denied entry to Europe, seriously? Please tell us what experience you have with that. Do you really think that European countries are focused on keeping out American citizens who have the ability to afford a 50' sailboat, have a house in the States, retirement money, spending money, and are gainfully employed? Do Mormons not travel? I've seen large families vacationing in Europe many times and I'll bet very few of them showed up on a boat that cost $100k+.

The only issue I've seen in Europe with large families was in Italy. If you're an EU citizen, the museum entrance fees are very low, but if you're not, they're quite expensive, and that would add up for a family of 9. That's it.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Rudderless]

Originally Posted by savoir

The Zatara people did pretty much that with 2 adults plus 4 children on a Beneteau 55. This is them.

https://sailingzatara.com/videos/

So far they have made it through Panama and headed for Ecuador. I am a little concerned about how fast they are spending money but otherwise things seem OK.

I'm sorry, you obviously weren't listening. It can't be done. Just give up.

[lancelot9898]

Great Posts Rudderless!

[Kenomac]

OK, 'nuff said. I'll step aside and let the "Go for it now dude" crowd take over. I'm just surprised that it took as long as it did for them to show up.

One parting bit advice to everyone... Some of the best and most valuable advice I've been offered in my lifetime was when someone older, wiser and usually more affluent advised me to STOP and NOT do something foolish that I was planning.

Ciao.