Written from a child's perspective

[Cwens]

A careful reading of the article suggests that the most significant issue did not occur afloat, but ashore: as a teen she was left alone, in charge of her own life and her younger sibling, in a somewhat remote location, without having been given the chance to form any friendships or connections with the local community, while her parents left the country for extended periods.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by ChrisOwens

A careful reading of the article suggests that the most significant issue did not occur afloat, but ashore: as a teen she was left alone, in charge of her own life and her younger sibling, in a somewhat remote location, without having been given the chance to form any friendships or connections with the local community, while her parents left the country for extended periods.

The most significant in your mind but just maybe not hers

Didn’t sound like she had a great time on the boat either

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

The most significant in your mind but just maybe not hers

Didn’t sound like she had a great time on the boat either

Agree with you. She found herself in those circumstances and geographically in those places as a result of cruising. She was seriously injured enroute. A very serious brain injury. And I can hear the upcoming objections,"could have cracked her skull riding a bike" , a car accident, a fall from a tree. But that's not what happened to her. It happened in the middle of the ocean away from medical services able to treat her. And while her treatment occurred on land it was way below the standards of care offered to a person from the country of her origin. No pain medicine or anesthesia while tapping drills into her skull? Several times? She'd never had arrived in those circumstances if it weren't for choices made by her parents.

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by ChrisOwens

A careful reading of the article suggests that the most significant issue did not occur afloat, but ashore: as a teen she was left alone, in charge of her own life and her younger sibling, in a somewhat remote location, without having been given the chance to form any friendships or connections with the local community, while her parents left the country for extended periods.

Originally Posted by AKA-None

The most significant in your mind but just maybe not hers

Didn’t sound like she had a great time on the boat either

She incured severe injuries enroute. Along with neglect of her education and clearly emotional neglect during the "cruising" passage. Which landed her ashore in a distant country where she was even further exposed to disregard and abandonment. "Cruising" brought her to that place., A more careful reading will show. Her younger sibling was only 1 year younger. He, however, was offered the bennifit of attending school. Considering their closeness in age wouldn't he be considered equally mature enough to take care of himself? Not that I believe under any circumstances should a 15 yo or a 14 yo be left on their own to navigate education, home economics, foreign resideny issues, business management and advertising in a foreign country. She is brilliant to deal with all of that and still manage to focus on what she needed to accomplish to escape those circumstances.

Yeah I would hear what became of the parents. What happened with their son? Was he expected to quit school and step into her shoes? There are a lot of questions. I think she was brilliant and strong.

Does anyone remember meeting them? I'd think some one in this community might have. I haven't purchased the book yet so have only read the article.

[desodave]

The article is an excerpt from a book that is to be published in mid-April. We both read the article the day it was published, and my wife immediately compared it to "The Glass Castle". Both are stories about completely self-absorbed parents imo whose kids basically raise themselves with very little positive input from their parents. The cruising life is merely a background to this story as the constant moving around was in The Glass Castle. The story has piqued our interest enough to pre-order the book. As others have said it is completely possible to raise kids successfully while cruising .... but attention was paid to the kids' needs.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Thanks for your post. It seems obvious to me, as a family law lawyer, that parents that take their children long distance cruising are selfish, putting their own interests about those of the children. Children are far better off on land, perhaps exposed to sailing on an occasional casual basis, instead of against their wishes for extended periods of time. They can play soccer, hike in the woods, enjoy playing with a dog in the back yard, play with a variety of friends, go to birthday parties, go trick or treating in their neighborhood, and learn independence and personal responsibility apart from their parents.

If they later enjoy sailing, and want to do it themselves, great. If not, you just forced them to do something to please yourself, not for their best interests.

As one of the primary aims of this listserv is to promote sailing, and promote the interests of the advertisers and sponsors, you will not get much traction here. Plus, people who have already done this will never admit that it was not best for their children. People tend to rationalize their decisions, not matter what the reality of the matter.

You have made a blanket statement about what is best for children.

I would think that individual parents would be in a better position to decide what is best for their individual children.

But let’s look at this more broadly.

I was a child of missionaries. We were overseas for 3 of 4 years in the mid to late 1970s. Every year we moved. Except for the year we were back in the states when we moves 3 times and traveled constantly looking for support to go back for another year. I didn’t make friends much though I at least learned the language. I saw things that no child should see. In some ways it scarred me for life but at the same time it left me with an empathy I don’t see in a lot of other folks and a willingness to see that the way people in other cultures arrange their affairs is not inferior it’s just different.

Should missionaries not be allowed to take their children with them overseas or should they stay home in their own culture?

I have friends that lived in the Netherlands for 3yr for work. Their 2 kids didn’t pick up the language or much of the culture. The only thing of note they got from their time there was a taste for soccer. When I was overseas as a kid there were a number of expat kids I went to school with. Mostly they made a few friends but their parents moved every 1 to 3yr so those didn’t last long.

Should parents who go overseas for work be made to leave their children behind?

Military kids often follow parents on extended deployments overseas. They tend to move frequently, and make short term friends. Some learn languages and cultures, some don’t. Worse, a misbehaving military kid can have a negative impact on a parent’s career, talk about added pressure to put on a kid that has their life regularly disrupted.

Should military personnel with kids not be allowed to serve overseas or should the spouses and children be left stateside for those extended deployments?

All these groups are like people that take their kids cruising with them. Except the parent lives and works alongside the kids for the whole period and give their children a lot more attention. For certain parents and certain children all that attention would not be a good thing, for most it would be.

My sense is that for some kids cruising would be a really good thing, and for some it’s a bad experience and for most it’s a mixed bag, sort of like my experience as a missionary’s kid that want that great at the time but which I a see a lot more benefits as an adult.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Thanks for your post. It seems obvious to me, as a family law lawyer, that parents that take their children long distance cruising are selfish, putting their own interests about those of the children. Children are far better off on land, perhaps exposed to sailing on an occasional casual basis, instead of against their wishes for extended periods of time. They can play soccer, hike in the woods, enjoy playing with a dog in the back yard, play with a variety of friends, go to birthday parties, go trick or treating in their neighborhood, and learn independence and personal responsibility apart from their parents.

If they later enjoy sailing, and want to do it themselves, great. If not, you just forced them to do something to please yourself, not for their best interests.

As one of the primary aims of this listserv is to promote sailing, and promote the interests of the advertisers and sponsors, you will not get much traction here. Plus, people who have already done this will never admit that it was not best for their children. People tend to rationalize their decisions, not matter what the reality of the matter.

It seems to me that you have not encountered cruising families in your sailing life.

Of course people are all different, and some children might theoretically (I've never met them) not want to be sailing with their parents. In such a case they shouldn't be forced to do it, of course.

I've known a lot of sailing families in my sailing life (second generation and doing it since the 70's), and cruising kids are the best, in my experience. First of all, they get to spend a ton of meaningful time with their parents -- highly correlated with being happy and well adjusted later in life. Second, they get a lot of responsibility early in life, learn a ton of different skills, learn self-reliance, experience family as self-reliant whole doing everything as a team, see a lot of the world, see and experience different cultures and societies -- all simply fantastic things for children's development. If they are home schooled -- so sailing year round -- that depends of course on the diligence of the parents, but home schooled children do better than school schooled ones, on average:

"Homeschooled children sometimes score higher on standardized tests [i.e. many studies show homeschooled children doing better on standardized tests] and their parents reported via survey that their children have equally or better developed social skills and participate more in cultural and family activities on average than public school students In addition, studies suggest that homeschoolers are generally more likely to have higher self-esteem, deeper friendships, and better relationships with adults, and are less susceptible to peer pressure." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling

Some of the most brilliant people I know were homeschooled, in particular one friend of mine who was dragged all over the world by his missionary parents with his 9 sisters and brothers, whose school-age education, provided by his parents, was basically equivalent to the U. of Chicago great books program. He went on to do extremely well in university and is having a brilliant career in his field. He's one of the best-read, most thoughtful, and altogether best-educated people I know.

I would not hesitate to take a child on an extended world cruise. In fact, taking a child for a long cruise would be probably the one reason why I would do it. I love sailing, but I love my work also, and my life on land, and a few months a year on board has always been enough for me. But to see the world through a child's eyes -- that would be fantastic, and maybe worth putting the career on hold for a year or two.

Family law attorneys deal professionally with broken down, not healthy families. I'm a lawyer myself, but I would never use that as the lens to see these questions through.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by desodave

. . . As others have said it is completely possible to raise kids successfully while cruising .... but attention was paid to the kids' needs.

Crappy parents are going to be crappy parents whether it's on land or sea.


That being said, I have seen far fewer crappy parents among cruising families, than on land, actually none that I can remember. On land it's much easier for parents to ignore their children and let them raise themselves, than when you're together with them all the time on a boat.


Crappy parents who want to sail, it seems to me, will be much more likely to give the kids into the care of someone else, than take them with them cruising. Because if they are with you cruising, you basically have no choice but to devote a great deal of time to them. The hallmark characteristic of crappy parents is simply not devoting time and attention to their kids, not involving them in their everyday activities. Cruising together is the best conceivable antidote to that.

[Gard]

I think sailor sailor makes a few points - at least of conscideration. Also, I think it is uncalled for to bash his opinions. The way I see it, as a family lawyer he probably has seen more tragedy, has dealt with more subject matter experts on children's mental health and development, etc - than I have. That just maybe, he has something to contribute... But I do disagree on some aspects.

Our main duty as parents is to make our children independent of us, turn them into decent human beings, prepare them for the world in good pace - and send them off. Going cruising or living any kind of vagabond lifestyle certainly will help children grow in ways that others won't.

But... having having a stable base where the kids can get the opportunity to spend years fostering long lasting relationships is something they will be somewhat robbed off. Within is valuable experience instrumental to fit into the normal world, and for happyness and success. This becomes especially important in ones teens as many of ones life long friends are made in high school, and with many ending up settling down within traveling distance of each other.

I myself has spendt much of my youth moving about. It gave me a lot of ballast. But, I regret not having had the opportunity to set roots. My friends from elementary school and junior high - we grew apart. My high school friends are all in other countries - and we have all fallen mostly out of touch. I have family, and new friends - but none with a shared legacy. I make friends and contacts faster than most, but it takes a decade or more to foster deep relationships.

Me, all I want to do is going vagabond - a drive that has been with me all my adult life (now 48). The only thing holding me back now is the fact that I want my kids to have the opportunity to stay in the place they are most likely to settle down, all the way through highschool and until they move out. If they would want to go cruising now, they are now old enough to decide - but they want to be where their friends are - do I stay put.

When they were younger, I would not have hecitated, but I lacked the opportunity as my other half did not want to go (we are now split up, going on yr 5, with me having most of the custody. I have a new partner who wants to go, but also shares my take on my kids staying put).

As for the law, there is in my country a status quo principle that governs when parents for instance split up (at least in my country). That means, in a custody battle, with all things being equal - the parent moving out of the school district has poorer odds for keeping custody. The principles is about stability and keeping as much as possible as they have been (except for the unhealthy bits). There is of course a reason for this principle - because great changes can have a detrimental effect on a child's well being, mental health and future prospects. I have myself been in such a custody battle, with all subject matter experts being very clear on this, including the court ruling. Now, this is not the same to say that such negative outcomes from changing a child's status quo is certain, only that it is more probable. I get the difference between a split up and cruising - but some of the principles still apply.

Lastly, cruising is not without its share of panic stricken dituations, scares and stress. For children, these feelings can be amplified. Some come out stronger at the end of those situations, others can be traumatized for quite a while.

Some kids may benefit greatly going cruising - no doubt. Especially those that struggle in their home environment, and simply can't make it work. Some kids and parents are more well suited than others. Never the less, there is a risk - but to some, a risk worth taking.

I respect either choice and believe that most parents are perfectly equipped to make the best judgement for their own children. Those that are not - well, they would make crap judgement at home as well. But, cruising does amplify things, for good and for bad.

[Sailor Sailor]

Actually, the analysis is easier in Virginia, because the law defines what is in the best interests of the child (the analysis family law lawyers perform repeatedly in any custody or visitation case:

From Va. Code Section 20-124.3:

In determining best interests of a child for purposes of determining custody or visitation arrangements, including any pendente lite orders pursuant to § 20-103, the court shall consider the following:

1. The age and physical and mental condition of the child, giving due consideration to the child's changing developmental needs;

2. The age and physical and mental condition of each parent;

3. The relationship existing between each parent and each child, giving due consideration to the positive involvement with the child's life, the ability to accurately assess and meet the emotional, intellectual, and physical needs of the child;

4. The needs of the child, giving due consideration to other important relationships of the child, including but not limited to siblings, peers, and extended family members;

5. The role that each parent has played and will play in the future, in the upbringing and care of the child;

6. The propensity of each parent to actively support the child's contact and relationship with the other parent, including whether a parent has unreasonably denied the other parent access to or visitation with the child;

7. The relative willingness and demonstrated ability of each parent to maintain a close and continuing relationship with the child, and the ability of each parent to cooperate in and resolve disputes regarding matters affecting the child;

8. The reasonable preference of the child, if the court deems the child to be of reasonable intelligence, understanding, age, and experience to express such a preference;

9. Any history of (i) family abuse as that term is defined in § 16.1-228; (ii) sexual abuse; (iii) child abuse; or (iv) an act of violence, force, or threat as defined in § 19.2-152.7:1 that occurred no earlier than 10 years prior to the date a petition is filed. If the court finds such a history or act, the court may disregard the factors in subdivision 6; and

10. Such other factors as the court deems necessary and proper to the determination.

Part of childhood is developing socialization skills, which require continuing contact with persons other than the parents. Peers and extended family relationships are important. Interactions with others outside the family, such as teachers and parents of peers, promote development.

Children cannot choose and consent as adults do. Even if a child wanted to go cruising, it's unlikely that child could make a rational, informed choice. The parent is making a choice for the child, according to what the parent wants.

The essential characteristics of the family cruising decision are long periods of isolation from others while sailing, limited contact with a stable community, a limited pool of potential close relationships, and a restriction on all the choices of activities for a child.

Whether that is good for a child depends upon your idea of the responsibility of raising children. If you think your responsibility is to feed, clothe, and shelter your child, with exposure to different cultures and environments, until he or she reaches 18, then you can accomplish that. If your goal is your child's self-realization with the maximum opportunities for socialization, development, independent choice and decision-making while pursuing multiple interests, it cannot possibly be best.

[jleonar]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Part of childhood is developing socialization skills, which require continuing contact with persons other than the parents. Peers and extended family relationships are important. Interactions with others outside the family, such as teachers and parents of peers, promote development.

Children cannot choose and consent as adults do. Even if a child wanted to go cruising, it's unlikely that child could make a rational, informed choice. The parent is making a choice for the child, according to what the parent wants.

The essential characteristics of the family cruising decision are long periods of isolation from others while sailing, limited contact with a stable community, a limited pool of potential close relationships, and a restriction on all the choices of activities for a child.

Whether that is good for a child depends upon your idea of the responsibility of raising children. If you think your responsibility is to feed, clothe, and shelter your child, with exposure to different cultures and environments, until he or she reaches 18, then you can accomplish that. If your goal is your child's self-realization with the maximum opportunities for socialization, development, independent choice and decision-making while pursuing multiple interests, it cannot possibly be best.

This tells me all I need to know about your opinion. You don't know jack about the majority of sailing families. If you did 10 minutes of research into it, you would see that there are groups, specifically on facebook, where people organize and meet up for months on end with their families. Exposing their kids to other children of similar ages and experiences.



They get to meet people they will form far greater bonds IMO, than would happen on land.



So again, you have done zero research, have zero insight into the lifestyle and it is painfully obvious from your posts.



Does that mean there aren't some parents that are isolating their children at sea? Of course there are. But those parents exist on land as well. Ever heard of homeschooling? There are a ton of normal homeschoolers but there are plenty that keep their children completely isolated.

[neilpride]

The mantra that a child or children's sailing or traveling at sea for long periods of time and may end up as autistic is false.

[Jebtrois]

Actually, the court's preferred/ "best" situation is a standard nuclear family...one where the court has no jurisdiction and one where parents can and do jointly make unilateral decisions about how to raise their children.

In the event of divorce, the next best and preferred court solution is for the parents to jointly agree on the terms of visitation, custody and cost sharing, ostensibly without the court needing to go intervene.

The third and most challenging, and least desirable to all parties, is when the parties do not agree and the court/judge is required to intervene and assign the considerations you listed. These conditions are NOT what the court considers the best solution. They are what the court has deemed the best considerations in the context of a disintegrating family and how to be an arbiter of the child's interests when the parents can't or won't agree without intervention.

It is uncommonly ethnocentric to believe that life in "the bubble" of west Richmond is the best and only good way to raise a child. What is perceived to be "best and good" is absolutely tied to where one is from and socioeconomic status, and it is important to understand that perception is not always true.

JEB

[gonesail]

yum .. ship's biscuits with weevils. thanks dad.

[davil]

Trying to understand his postings, not just this one but previous ones, perhaps what invites negative reactions is because they are stated as “as I am a lawyer I am an expert on….whatever the issue is”.

I faintly remember another posting where he was an “expert” on sociopathy and personality disorders. He was referring to excerpts from the DSM V again without any formal clinical experience but using those terms as lawyers do in court.

This is a forum that gets together sailors (yes, power boats are included) and very seldom there is somebody “boasting” about a particular area of “expertise” We tend to listen and take advantage of member's wide bank of information, most times based on their personal life boating.

I will hope his postings develop into more coherent sailing issues based on personal experience or research.

From my personal cruising life, I have encountered many families with children, they were very nice kids as well as their families. I do not recall meeting these aberrant kinds of families, does not mean much, more likely they existed, just did not meet them.

I did check Wikipedia as posted by other member and found this.
Suzanne Elizabeth Heywood, is a British executive and former civil servant. She has been managing director of the Exor Group since 2016 and chair of CNH Industrial since 2018. She is Chairperson at Iveco Group

On their parents' behavior, I believe if they have been in the USA, there was enough neglect to justify a referral to Child Protective Services.

Interesting thread