Sabre 402 or Beneteau 461

[MicHughV]

A perfect analogy would be cars.
Dozens of makes and models of every description manufacture by dozens of different automanacucturers.

[MicHughV]

wow....spell check got ahead of me...
auto manufacturers

Regardless, they all have 4 wheels, and an engine and can all get you from A to B in relative comfort and safety.

True, some have bigger engines, some have 4 wheel drive, some are rear wheel drive, other front wheel drive, etc, etc

Which is the best for you ? Obviously price dictates that for most, but even so, many options to pick from at the same price point.

If you shop with your dad, he'll pick one for you.
If you shop with a girlfriend, she'll pick one for you.
And if you shop on your own, the salesman will pick one for you.

You might go to dealer thinking about a certain car, but a good salesman will steer you towards a different car, and so it goes.

I used to think an open transom was a dumb idea, but have grown to love it.
I used to think a ketch was the only way to fly, etc, etc.
I used to....a lot of things....but have learned to tone down my expectations.

Mostly, I'm attracted to a boat by virtue of it's "looks". Once that is out of the way, I focus on the nut and bolts of things and then take a realistic look and assessment of my checking account.

I would rather think that many other sailors follow a similar course.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I haven't looked at a Sabre in 20 years, but back then looking closely at the 40 footer, I would say the construction work was far better than Beneteau. But the hull was cored, which I wont do.

That depends on the core material and the builder. It creates a great stiff hull if well done.
I wouldn't choose balsa as a hull core material

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

I am glad your boat works for you. I don't know how you use it or how many ocean crossing you have done in it. I have 40,000nm in my present boat with 4 Atlantic crossings in this one. I have a couple of crossing in my previous boat. I also have some prespective
Edit: I forgot to add we had a diesel generator 920w of solar and two spare anchors, Jordan series drogue as well

I have put 86,000 miles on a Bene crossing every ocean, so I also have some perspective. The 461 may not the best built boat out there, but it will get the job done, and get you across the Atlantic a few days ahead of your boat. The same load will raise the water line 15% less on the Bene than the Sabre, but either one will carry it safely.

[Wandering1]

[QUOTE=donradcliffe;3910575] The 461 may not the best built boat out there, but it will get the job done, and get you across the Atlantic a few days ahead of your boat.

Really?
We just sailed Antigua to Horta in 15 days. Never met another boats of the same size that did it faster. We were faster than an Oyster 55. A Gibsea 51 beat us but fully crewed not justt me and the Mrs😀 . We are only 44ft with 35.5ft waterline.
In 2020 we did the same trip in 17 days. Out of 100 hundred boats of all sizes, we were the 6th fastest boat at 17 days. These were both predominantly light wind crossing where flat bottoms boat don't fair so we'll due to hull drag. You would definitely beat us if you could make hull speed and use your waterline length to good effect

[donradcliffe]

[QUOTE=Wandering1;3910583]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The 461 may not the best built boat out there, but it will get the job done, and get you across the Atlantic a few days ahead of your boat.

Really?
We just sailed Antigua to Horta in 15 days. Never met another boats of the same size that did it faster. We were faster than an Oyster 55. A Gibsea 51 beat us but fully crewed not justt me and the Mrs😀 . We are only 44ft with 35.5ft waterline.
In 2020 we did the same trip in 17 days. Out of 100 hundred boats of all sizes, we were the 6th fastest boat at 17 days. These were both predominantly light wind crossing where flat bottoms boat don't fair so we'll due to hull drag. You would definitely beat us if you could make hull speed and use your waterline length to good effect

The Sabre and the Bene 461 have PHRF ratings of about 90, while my Bene First 456 is about 50 seconds per mile. For comparison a J44 is about 20, an Outbound 46 is 90, and an Oyster 55 is 110. I couldn't find a rating for the Gibsea 51, but their 44 rates 120.

What are you driving?

[Wandering1]

[QUOTE=donradcliffe;3910598]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

The Sabre and the Bene 461 have PHRF ratings of about 90, while my Bene First 456 is about 50 seconds per mile. For comparison a J44 is about 20, an Outbound 46 is 90, and an Oyster 55 is 110. I couldn't find a rating for the Gibsea 51, but their 44 rates 120.

What are you driving?

A rating is irrelevant when you are ocean sailing. You should know that. Your boats has tiny fuel and water tankage. Do you carry a lot of fuel and water on deck? How does this effect your rating?
You wouldn't find a rating for my boat either since it's a Dutch built boat from 1980. A Trintella 44.
We sailed from Horta to Angra do Heroismo. We overtook a Allures 51.9. Broad reaching in light winds. Check their rating. It will give you an idea of ours

[rslifkin]

PHRF isn't entirely applicable to long distance sailing, but it's still some indication of relative speed. Tankage wise, the newer Beneteaus tend to be particularly deficient. Many of their older designs (such as the ones being discussed here) were better in that respect (and in my opinion were generally better boats than what they build now).

[donradcliffe]

[QUOTE=Wandering1;3910602]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

A rating is irrelevant when you are ocean sailing. You should know that. Your boats has tiny fuel and water tankage. Do you carry a lot of fuel and water on deck? How does this effect your rating?
You wouldn't find a rating for my boat either since it's a Dutch built boat from 1980. A Trintella 44.
We sailed from Horta to Angra do Heroismo. We overtook a Allures 51.9. Broad reaching in light winds. Check their rating. It will give you an idea of ours

A PHRF rating is a good start for a performance evaluation. Carrying 7000 lbs over lightship is worth about 12 seconds per mile. Flying a spinnaker is worth 20-30 seconds per mile.

The US Sailing database goes way back. It said it had a Trintella 44, but it only gave the handicaps for the Trinitlla 42, 45, and 47 as 100, 105, and 96.

The tankage for the Bene 461 is 550l water, 200l fuel. The First 456 only had 400l of water in the tanks, but I had a watermaker. I carried 80 l of fuel on deck, but the boat was fast in light airs and wicked fast to weather.


Were their any catamarans out there, and how many passed you?

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

PHRF isn't entirely applicable to long distance sailing, but it's still some indication of relative speed. Tankage wise, the newer Beneteaus tend to be particularly deficient. Many of their older designs (such as the ones being discussed here) were better in that respect (and in my opinion were generally better boats than what they build now).

Agree with that.

Our 44 foot Trintella has an 800 Litre water tank and a 500 litre diesel tank.
Since we have a big watermaker, we rarely fill the water tank, not even for Atlantic crossings. We left this time just over 1/2 full. We made water a couple of times on the way over

[MicHughV]

Just curious to know how many $$ that Trintella 44 set you back.

You don't have to tell me, but curious.

I googled them online, and prices seem to vary quite a bit.

Nice boat though.....