Would you choose an Endeavorcat 34 or Gemini 105mc to cross the Atlantic?

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by contrail

Thanks for the video, Davy J. I knew it existed, but had never seen it or looked for it. Very interesting and the Gemini did pretty well.

One of the most interesting parts to me, is about the 33 minute mark. They are actually dragging warps to slow the boat down..........

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Of course, but when I met him, he was building on the Chesapeake, which I consider the best possible cruising grounds for the boat at that time.

No doubt, it's an awesome platform for shallow water gunk holing. The draft and beam allowed us to go places a similar size monohull or a wide beam cat would never consider.

That doesn't mean it's not perfectly fine in open water.

[Octopussy]

Your ACTUAL original question was, "Would you choose an Endeavorcat 34 or Gemini 105mc to cross the Atlantic?... [if] your budget limited you to one of these older cats, would you be very comfortable/confident crossing the Atlantic in it?"

MY short answer is NO.

My longer answer is:

My husband and I owned, and totally refitted stem-to-stern, a Prout Snowgoose 37.... lived aboard with our son and dogs, and sailed extensively. As a note, our boat had two inboard engines with direct (shaft) drives, instead of the single engine with a stern drive. Engine redundancy was key to long-term cruising for us.

Here is a link to a 2008 Sail Magazine Article and below are a few quotes:

"...when you mention the Snowgoose 37 to an experienced multihull sailor their likely response will be, 'Oh, what a great cruising boat. It's a real bluewater boat.' Unlike more modern cruising cats that boast double-digit speeds and hotel-like accommodations, the Snowgoose is renown for its rugged construction and seakindliness."

"The boat was built to cross oceans, not to fill Caribbean charter fleets."

"Somewhere around 500 boats have been built, and... I have been told that nearly 100 have completed circumnavigations."

"'If you have $100,000 [note: 2008 $$] and want a cat to sail around the world, you'll probably end up in a Snowgoose,' said John Sykes, who owns 2Hulls, a large multihull brokerage in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."

We encountered some really extreme conditions with our Prout, and it never let us down. It was a solid platform.

And while Davy J posted a video of a Gemini crossing an ocean... I wouldn't do it. Just because people have gone over Niagara Falls in a barrel doesn't mean it's a prudent thing to do!

HOWEVER.... There are some 39 Prout Escales out there now for a reasonable price. They are really nice platforms... with the two extra feet, you'd get 2 direct drive inboard engines, steps in the hulls, and a slightly nicer layout and more headroom. We missed out on an Escale, and then found our dual-engined Snowgoose. So, I'd look at the Escale if you can find one in your price range.

Good Luck!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Octopussy

[B]
As a note, our boat had two inboard engines with direct (shaft) drives, instead of the single engine with a stern drive. Engine redundancy was key to long-term cruising for us.

We had sails, the main outboard and the dingy motor rode on a quick deploy bracket. How much more redundancy do you need?

Problem I had with the smaller snowgeese were the living arrangements aren't as comfortable (our opinion at least) and reality is 90% of the time, you aren't out on the open ocean but living a day to day life on the boat.

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by Octopussy

And while Davy J posted a video of a Gemini crossing an ocean... I wouldn't do it.

People keep regurgitating this....... But never give a reason why......
Sure they'll say "bridge deck", "lightly built", "narrow beam".............

I don't think I've ever heard of a Gemini just falling apart...........

And yes some morons have capsized, but some other morons have capsized catamarans with 25' beams......go figure.........

If Webb Chiles can circumnavigate in a 24' boat, I think a 34' catamaran will be just fine........... As long as you know what you are doing.......

If you don't, no boat will be good enough.


Edited to add:

Originally Posted by Octopussy

My husband and I owned, and totally refitted stem-to-stern, a Prout Snowgoose 37....

Did you ever own and refit a Gemini 105Mc, not a 3000, not a 3400.......?? If not, how can you give us your opinion???

[smj]

Originally Posted by Davy J

People keep regurgitating this....... But never give a reason why......
Sure they'll say "bridge deck", "lightly built", "narrow beam".............

I don't think I've ever heard of a Gemini just falling apart...........

And yes some morons have capsized, but some other morons have capsized catamarans with 25' beams......go figure.........

If Webb Chiles can circumnavigate in a 24' boat, I think a 34' catamaran will be just fine........... As long as you know what you are doing.......

If you don't, no boat will be good enough.


Edited to add:


Did you ever own and refit a Gemini 105Mc, not a 3000, not a 3400.......?? If not, how can you give us your opinion???

What other catamarans have you owned other than the Gemini?

[river251]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

I bought my Packet Cat to circumnavigate as did one of my best friends. Features I liked. Wide decks, easy to move around on. Standing headroom everywhere inside the boat (I'm 6'1) Solidly built, been in storm 35-45 knots 10', 7, 6' seas from 3 different angles all hitting randomly, no problem. Not fun but no worries. Near standing headroom in the engine compartments. Yes, you read that right. Lots of room making it easier to work on everything. IPY built in an innovative Delta Pod". Because this is a solid bridgedeck they slam into the waves. The Delta Pod is a 3rd hull in the bow section going back maybe 10' that barely rides in the water but splits the wave making the ride more like a mono hull, more comfortable with the added benefit of not that entire are becomes storage and floatation. You can fill it as much as you'd like and it really doesn't change the balance. I have a scuba compressor in there.

These cats you are looking at are older and not performance cat by todays standards. They are cruisers. Cats are weight sensitive so to get rid of weight I'm doing a few things. 1. Dyneema standing rigging. 2. LiFePo batteries 3. Next bottom job stripping it down to the gel coat completely.

Thanks Cpt Mark. How much weight you reckon to strip away with those measures?

[river251]

Originally Posted by ezrider

Well I looked at a endeavor and I looked at a Gemini

I decided on neither!

Ok so what did I decide on

A Catalac 34 or 10m

Built for the North Sea it is solidnglas hull built like a tank but slow

So do mind slow no I mind being sag the old girls is safe check their reputation out

Good luck trying to find one 600 Catalacs were buil very few for sale

I know of one other but he is crazy priced for what I needs

Funny, a broker that has me on his line just sent me a listing for a Catalac. It sounds sweet. How slow is it compared to Prout Snowgoose, Island Packet Cat 35, Gemini 105mc? Can you give me that answer to tenths of a knot?

[river251]

Originally Posted by LeeV

To stay on topic: neither, and have sailed both.

My Condor 40 and Corsair 36 were great trimarans, and we loved sailing coastal, but I’d not sail either transatlantic, even though the former was built and prepped for the OSTAR.

I think the Toni’s is ion for the Gemini was as close to perfection right where he built them, on the Chesapeake Bay. It may be the best gunkholing boat ever built, and the Bay and the Bahamas are perfect for it. IMHO

Lee, you give me an opportunity to ask the question that's hot on my mind:

What about your Lagoon 450F, to your thinking, makes it an ocean crosser, that is lacking in these boats? Or for that matter a Prout or Island Packet Cat?

Oh boy do I hope you give me a good response on this one.

[river251]

Originally Posted by MultiCountryDon

Either one would be fine for the crossing if properly prepared.
In this case that means loaded onto a ship.
Good for coastal cruising. Ocean crossing not so much.

Why, Don? I feel on the cusp of knowledge.

[river251]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Amel Santorin if it were me.

Cats are cool to play in the Bahamas, but more serious work I like a mono.

To each their own. Gemini seems a little less of a floating condo.

I know I keep asking everyone, well, why'd ya say that?

So, why did you say that? The disadvantages of cats I've come across so far is that they don't "bend" - when hit with a hard wind they just stay upright and absorb all that energy into the rigging, whereas a mono heels, relieving stress. And the capsizing stays upside down thing, but after a couple years watching videos, I think there are a lot more monos - as a percentage of the total - sitting on the bottom that there are cats - as a percentage of the total - that have capsized.

So why'd ya say that, about a mono for serious work, SailingSue?

[river251]

What a fantastic answer, Octopussy! Thanks very much!

From what I have read, those twin diesel Prouts are rare. I haven't heard of the Escale and will put it on my reading list.

Thanks again. Hope you find your boat soon --

Originally Posted by Octopussy

Your ACTUAL original question was, "Would you choose an Endeavorcat 34 or Gemini 105mc to cross the Atlantic?... [if] your budget limited you to one of these older cats, would you be very comfortable/confident crossing the Atlantic in it?"

MY short answer is NO.

My longer answer is:

My husband and I owned, and totally refitted stem-to-stern, a Prout Snowgoose 37.... lived aboard with our son and dogs, and sailed extensively. As a note, our boat had two inboard engines with direct (shaft) drives, instead of the single engine with a stern drive. Engine redundancy was key to long-term cruising for us.

Here is a link to a 2008 Sail Magazine Article and below are a few quotes:

"...when you mention the Snowgoose 37 to an experienced multihull sailor their likely response will be, 'Oh, what a great cruising boat. It's a real bluewater boat.' Unlike more modern cruising cats that boast double-digit speeds and hotel-like accommodations, the Snowgoose is renown for its rugged construction and seakindliness."

"The boat was built to cross oceans, not to fill Caribbean charter fleets."

"Somewhere around 500 boats have been built, and... I have been told that nearly 100 have completed circumnavigations."

"'If you have $100,000 [note: 2008 $$] and want a cat to sail around the world, you'll probably end up in a Snowgoose,' said John Sykes, who owns 2Hulls, a large multihull brokerage in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."

We encountered some really extreme conditions with our Prout, and it never let us down. It was a solid platform.

And while Davy J posted a video of a Gemini crossing an ocean... I wouldn't do it. Just because people have gone over Niagara Falls in a barrel doesn't mean it's a prudent thing to do!

HOWEVER.... There are some 39 Prout Escales out there now for a reasonable price. They are really nice platforms... with the two extra feet, you'd get 2 direct drive inboard engines, steps in the hulls, and a slightly nicer layout and more headroom. We missed out on an Escale, and then found our dual-engined Snowgoose. So, I'd look at the Escale if you can find one in your price range.

Good Luck!

[river251]

Oh, and even better, the article on the Prout is by Kretschmer. I think he tells it like it is from vast experience. Just read (listened to actually) Sailing a Serious Ocean. Off to read the article. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Octopussy

Your ACTUAL original question was, "Would you choose an Endeavorcat 34 or Gemini 105mc to cross the Atlantic?... [if] your budget limited you to one of these older cats, would you be very comfortable/confident crossing the Atlantic in it?"

MY short answer is NO.

My longer answer is:

My husband and I owned, and totally refitted stem-to-stern, a Prout Snowgoose 37.... lived aboard with our son and dogs, and sailed extensively. As a note, our boat had two inboard engines with direct (shaft) drives, instead of the single engine with a stern drive. Engine redundancy was key to long-term cruising for us.

Here is a link to a 2008 Sail Magazine Article and below are a few quotes:

"...when you mention the Snowgoose 37 to an experienced multihull sailor their likely response will be, 'Oh, what a great cruising boat. It's a real bluewater boat.' Unlike more modern cruising cats that boast double-digit speeds and hotel-like accommodations, the Snowgoose is renown for its rugged construction and seakindliness."

"The boat was built to cross oceans, not to fill Caribbean charter fleets."

"Somewhere around 500 boats have been built, and... I have been told that nearly 100 have completed circumnavigations."

"'If you have $100,000 [note: 2008 $$] and want a cat to sail around the world, you'll probably end up in a Snowgoose,' said John Sykes, who owns 2Hulls, a large multihull brokerage in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."

We encountered some really extreme conditions with our Prout, and it never let us down. It was a solid platform.

And while Davy J posted a video of a Gemini crossing an ocean... I wouldn't do it. Just because people have gone over Niagara Falls in a barrel doesn't mean it's a prudent thing to do!

HOWEVER.... There are some 39 Prout Escales out there now for a reasonable price. They are really nice platforms... with the two extra feet, you'd get 2 direct drive inboard engines, steps in the hulls, and a slightly nicer layout and more headroom. We missed out on an Escale, and then found our dual-engined Snowgoose. So, I'd look at the Escale if you can find one in your price range.

Good Luck!

[Davy J]

Originally Posted by smj

What other catamarans have you owned other than the Gemini?

I've sailed on plenty of different model cats, boarded more than I can count, been doing this for about 26 years...........

Even though I have friends that own Lagoon's, been on them several times, I would not feel qualified to give an opinion about them because I never actually owned one.

Many people are giving responses having owned older Gemini's. While they share some of the same features... they are totally different boats.

How can someone that refitted a prout, know anything about a Gemini? For several years I owned a twin engine Regal express cruiser...... that doesn't mean I know anything about a Tiara......or a Sea Ray or Rinker.

Which hull of 105Mc did you own.........???

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by river251

I know I keep asking everyone, well, why'd ya say that?

So, why did you say that? The disadvantages of cats I've come across so far is that they don't "bend" - when hit with a hard wind they just stay upright and absorb all that energy into the rigging, whereas a mono heels, relieving stress. And the capsizing stays upside down thing, but after a couple years watching videos, I think there are a lot more monos - as a percentage of the total - sitting on the bottom that there are cats - as a percentage of the total - that have capsized.

So why'd ya say that, about a mono for serious work, SailingSue?

You pretty much nailed it, also the upwind performance.

I’m sure way more monos on the bottom, but way way more monos on the water.

To each their own, I honestly do get the cat appeal, and if I was hanging out in the Bahamas/keys/shallow areas I’d likely go for it, but outside of that setting they start to get a little out of their element.

Also cat prices feel a little higher than what you get when compared to a mono bang for the buck wise.